05: Softening Social Anxiety and Embracing Your Sensitivity
With Louisa Lombard, LCPC
When is it best to stay home to honor your social anxiety and when do you get slightly uncomfortable to show up for what’s important to you? In this episode, Louisa Lombard, LCPC opens up about her own experiences as an HSP with anxiety and:
• Taking a gentle approach when navigating social anxiety
• The continuum of feeling nervous to socially anxious and how to tell the difference
• Throwing away unsupportive feedback and what to do with critical comments
• Raising sensitive children and discovering your own sensitive needs along the way
• Being more impacted by less nurturing childhood experiences compared to your siblings
• Being labeled the bad or difficult child for being more sensitive and intuitive
• Sensitive people are strong and unexpectedly resilient because they feel so much and do it anyway!
Louisa is a therapist who specializes in supporting HSPs and HSP parents with anxiety, social anxiety, imposter syndrome, perfectionism, depression and overwhelm. Louisa sees clients virtually across California and Maryland. She helps people to feel more confident, calm, and self-compassionate, so that they can live life more in alignment with their goals and dreams.
Keep in touch with Louisa:
• Website: http://www.strongandsensitive.com
Additional Resources:
• Attachment Style Quiz
• HSP Self-Test by Dr. Elaine Aron
• Facing Codependence by Pia Melody
• Insight Timer App for Mindfulness
• Self-Compassion Practices
Thanks for listening!
You can also follow "SensitiveStrengths" for behind-the-scenes content plus more educational and inspirational HSP resources:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sensitivestrengths
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This episode is for educational purposes only and is not intended as a substitute for treatment with a mental health or medical professional. Some links are affiliate links. You are under no obligation to purchase any book, product or service. I am not responsible for the quality or satisfaction of any purchase.
Episode Transcript
Louisa: 0:00
sensitive people are actually really strong to be able to feel all of this and do it anyway.
April: 0:14
Welcome to Sensitive Stories, the podcast for the people who live with hearts and eyes wide open. I'm your host, psychotherapist and author, April Snow. I invite you to join me as I deep dive into rich conversations with fellow highly sensitive people that will inspire you to live a more fulfilling life as an HSP without all the overwhelm.
April: 0:38
In this episode I talk with Louisa Lombard about taking a slow, gentle approach to soothing social anxiety, when it's best to stay home versus getting uncomfortable, and how to handle criticism as an HSP. Louisa is a therapist who specializes in supporting HSP's and HSP parents with anxiety, social anxiety and post-her syndrome, perfectionism, depression and overwhelm. Louisa sees clients virtually across California and Maryland. She helps people to feel more confident, calm and self-compassionate so that they can live more in alignment with their goals and dreams. For more HSP resources and to see behind the scenes video from the podcast, join me on Instagram, TikTok or YouTube at SensitiveShrinks or sign up for my email list. Links are in the show notes and at sensitivestoriescom. And just a reminder that this episode is for educational purposes only and is not intended as a substitute for treatment with a mental health or medical professional. Let's dive in.
Louisa: 2:01
Within social anxiety, every case is unique and it looks different and it operates on a continuum that there's severe, debilitating, really painful social anxiety that really limits what we want out of life, and then there's just a sprinkle, a little bit of social anxiety that shows up in a certain setting or with a particular people. I could choose to not put myself out there or I could say this is something that I really want in my life. I want to spread awareness and share information and connect with people and be able to support on a larger scale. I want to make a bigger difference, and if that's my goal and a passion that I have and that public speaking element of the social anxiety is there for me, then I'm just going to acknowledge that it is and I'm going to go after it.
April: 2:59
Oh, I love that it's mission and pushing through and working with the social anxiety, I'm going to go after it?
Louisa: 3:06
How do you do that? I'm just going to go deep and I'm going to say that I adopted this mentality and maybe it's hitting 40. Yeah, I don't know, but I've adopted this mentality where I'll sometimes ask myself I know this is dramatic, but it's just how I think if I had a year left to live, would I say yes or no to this experience, To spending time with this person, to playing a game of UNO with my kids, to what am I going to say yes to, and then, within that framework, and what that's done for me? Honestly, I've really focused on certain friendships and I ask myself how do I feel before, during and after being with someone? And there's this mindfulness to that experience. I go after things in that kind of within that framework. Another sort of deep lens that I see things through, too, is that I heard this quote and a couple of people have said it in my life recently, but the quote is we each get two lives. The second one starts when we realize that we just have one.
April: 4:20
Wow, that's true. I appreciate that you're reflecting and saying how important is this to me, how meaningful is this to me? Is this worth pushing through and being with discomfort? Is this worth facing that anxiety head on? Do I dedicate my precious bandwidth to this? Is this something I lean into? You said I reflect before, during and after and that, I imagine, helps you decide going forward. Are these the types of people or the types of situations that I feel deeply connected with? What else tells you to go forward towards the anxiety when it's something to lean into versus say no to?
Louisa: 5:00
That's a great question. I think for me it's also come down to a lot of mindfulness practice and just really being in touch with how I'm feeling, what my goals are, what I want in life. I love having deep conversations with friends and people I really admire and talking and thinking some of those things through. I really enjoy doing that, but I never thought I would say this 10, 20 years ago. But I love getting comfortable with feeling uncomfortable.
April: 5:30
That surprises me in the context of social anxiety, but it also excites me. Yeah, that is possible. I can accept being uncomfortable.
Louisa: 5:39
Yeah, it's something that we can all sit with, but I think one of the things that I noticed with social anxiety is that many people have this fear that they're going to have to jump in and develop this fear hierarchy and just knock out the fears and work through, check off each fear and do scary things and do it in this compact, high intensity way that doesn't tend to work for heavy, sensitive people.
April: 6:09
It's true. When we think of it, we feel like we have to attack it, which, for highly sensitive folks, can actually get pretty dysregulating. Yes, you can get too overwhelming over stimulating. It sounds like you take a gentle approach, is that true?
Louisa: 6:22
I do Absolutely, yes. Yes, I love to do it that way, and I think when I was a kid, I had severe social anxiety. My mom would call me a shrinking violet. There were so many things that I didn't want to do that I was scared of as a teen, as a young adult. I have a lot of siblings and I would look back and I would just tell myself you are shy because you were homeschooled K through eighth grade and you were super sheltered and you didn't have a lot of experiences socially, and so of course, it's true this way. But as I talk to my siblings today, we compare and contrast our experiences. I was one of the more socially anxious and I'm technically an extra.
April: 7:07
They're also not sensitive, so you're having a very different experience in the same environment, having a different temperament, being more sensitive.
Louisa: 7:15
Yes, yes, it was unintentional exposure that helped me so much. I worked at a grocery store in high school. I had a check stand and I would talk with hundreds of people every day and that helped me a lot.
April: 7:29
I also struggled and still struggle some with social anxiety, and what you're saying resonates a lot, because when something has meaning or someone feels important to connect with, I'm able to lean in a lot more easily. Yes, yes, also, I worked at a grocery store for many years before becoming a therapist and it's true it does help soften having those interactions.
Louisa: 7:53
Absolutely. It's such a variety of people that pass through and being highly sensitive, adjusting for all these different personalities and then going home and deeply processing those experiences.
April: 8:05
Yes, exactly. I don't know if this was your experience too, and I've always tried to figure out. This is because I'm highly sensitive that I can find myself easily connecting with each of those personalities. Was that your experience?
Louisa: 8:16
also.
April: 8:17
Yes, yes, great capability to connect, to empathize with all different types of people, because we can usually really see people and see all the different layers and I usually can find some way that, oh, I could relate to them.
Louisa: 8:30
Absolutely.
April: 8:31
Then we bring in the social anxiety piece. How did that show up when you were having those interactions?
Louisa: 8:36
if at all. When I would start my shift it was bigger and then it would pass through and I worked at a grocery store next door to a studio somewhere, and so it would be the same people during their lunch breaks and developing a rapport over time. Yes, so many same customers that it was really supportive.
April: 8:55
You said over time things deepened and shifted. Is that an important part of being with social anxiety? Yes, giving yourself time.
Louisa: 9:06
Yes, absolutely, I believe, at least for highly sensitive people. I think that there just needs to be an acceptance that it's a process and that it takes time and when we lean into getting comfortable, feeling uncomfortable the things that make us uncomfortable now, if we continue to lean into, it will not make us feel uncomfortable in the future. It will be something else that we'll be leaning into. I have this awesome therapist and I think when my oldest daughter was in kindergarten and so there was still some social anxiety there for me not so much maybe one-on-one, but in high conflict or potentially high conflict situations it would be there.
Louisa: 9:50
And I remember there was this particular situation with a birthday party and play date was canceled because friend had headlights and but then that same day that individual was at this birthday party and I was like, oh, no problems, and that felt scary for me but I'm going to remove my daughter from the situation and I said I'm not comfortable with this in light of having canceled a play date for this morning and there was some conflict and it got uncomfortable. And then I went to my therapist and told him about it and he chuckled and was like Elisa, awkward is the new normal. You're a parent, you have kids in the K-12 system and I think in general, things like that especially conflict where people with social anxiety and for highly sensitive people it can feel uncomfortable and big and awkward. But when he normalized it for me like that, that was so awkward for me to go through that and I would have not had it any other way. That's what I needed to do.
April: 10:47
This would be so easy to go into people pleasing mode, let the anxiety take over and not say anything and maybe just take the risk of staying at the party. But you said something and you knew exactly what to do and leaned in to be able to do it.
Louisa: 11:04
How did you get that? I've become passionate about doing the hard things because I know each time I do them they get easier. For me it's that exposure work. It is hard and it feels big in a moment. But then now, like today, that was quite a few years ago. Today, that wouldn't feel for me in my body the way that it felt then.
April: 11:25
Yes, it's a process and it gets easier over time. And also my takeaway from that story is that you don't have to be in a box with social anxiety. There are things that you can do that maybe others would assume wouldn't be possible for someone with social anxiety.
Louisa: 11:43
Absolutely, and I think that there's like different experiences in our lives, like maybe we're going through something, we're adjusting, going through a major life change and that might not be the time to dive in and lean hard into this. So I think it is a process and it really can be an over time process, and when we feel like we're in that place to just do it, then enjoy that and do it. But if you feel like you're in a place in your life because you're going through hard things and you have social anxiety and you just want to really stay home or and take gentle care of yourself and not face it head on like, then letting that be okay too I think is important.
April: 12:23
It's so important to honor where we are a sense of people that it's okay to say I need to go more inward right now. I need to recharge, I need to take care of myself. It's okay to look at what you have available when you're making choices about how much to lean into those edges to the social anxiety or to whatever it is that's feeling uncomfortable.
Louisa: 12:46
Yeah, I absolutely agree. There were times where I just you know, like when I had my first daughter, that wasn't the time for me to do that. I was adjusting.
April: 12:57
You were adjusting Exactly and we need lots of that was big. Adjustment time, especially for big life changes, big life events and transitions. When you were giving yourself that time, did it feel welcoming or were you able to accept that it's okay to take this time? I've just had a child, it's okay not to push myself so much.
Louisa: 13:16
I think that it was a battle at first. Now, when we talk about like our sensitive story and how that all came about, this is my sensitive story. Having my first daughter, I wanted to get out there. I was in these mom groups, I had done prenatal yoga and I wanted to socialize and stay connected. Our babies are around the same ages and that sounded like it would feel good to me.
Louisa: 13:39
And then my oldest knew what she wanted when she wanted it and what she didn't want when she didn't want it. And she was very even as a little baby. She was like, so vocal and had these strong preferences for which carrier and they had all these different baby carriers with different fabrics, and there was this one that she loved and didn't like the rest of them. She wanted to be held, she wanted to be soothed. There were things like white noise machines that she liked, ones that she would cry. This is a lot. I need to figure this out.
Louisa: 14:10
And somewhere in that first year I read an article about highly sensitive people and when I read that article I just was like, okay, they're describing my daughter. This is my baby. How am I going to adapt our worlds to meeting our needs. And then it was really in doing that kind of deep dive and research and reading Dr Aaron's books I think at that time she had the heavy sensitive person and the heavy sensitive child were out and I just read them and as I was reading them I was like, oh they saw you out, me too. This is me. I am totally heavy sensitive and so is she, and yeah, that's how I realized that I was. And so my oldest is 11 and a half now, and so it's been over 10 years since I realized that it's been life changing for me. I see the world differently, I take care of myself differently. There's just so many things that I've adopted into my lifestyle at this point in time and that journey that I just do on autopilot now.
April: 15:20
A sweet experience to share that with your daughter, that your sensitive stories overlap in such a way. And. I hear that from a lot of parents. That's how they discovered that they are highly sensitive, through wanting to support their child and learn about their child. When you said, it's like take care of our needs, take care of her and taking care of you, such a beautiful experience.
Louisa: 15:42
Thank you.
April: 15:43
And it sounds like it maybe woke up a lot in you. When I discovered that I was highly sensitive, I really looked back and rewrote my story through that lens. Did you have a similar experience?
Louisa: 15:54
Yes, absolutely. I looked back at my childhood and I think it helped me, honestly, to give a lot more compassion to my parents. They struggled and they're humans and I wasn't like some of my other siblings. I wasn't that easy for them and they didn't know what to do. And then I talked to my siblings and we describe our childhood so differently. There were things for me that were not really not nurturing and supportive that impacted me, and another one of my siblings might just normalize that and it wasn't a big deal and they're not sensitive and I am going back to that differential susceptibility piece, like when we're more helped or more harmed by our environment. I like what Pia Malady describes less than nurturing childhood, and it was that for me. And did it impact my other siblings in the same way, especially my not so sensitive, non-sensitive siblings? No, it didn't. It was. They will tell you a different story about their childhood. For me, things hit really deeply.
April: 16:56
When we're in the same household but have different temperaments, the experience is very different. And your siblings sounds like they were getting close to enough, but when you're highly sensitive, the needs are so different and, like you said with your daughter, she was responding to the textures in her baby carriers and the white noise machines. Just so much more to pay attention to with a sensitive child and we often get missed or those deeper needs don't get met, we don't get seen. It sounds like you were having that experience too. Definitely.
Louisa: 17:27
And I think I come from a large family and a few of my siblings did feel that way as well, but I was stubborn, I was. There were things that I was older made to do that I wouldn't do, and sometimes it was because of the high sensitivity, sometimes it was because of the social anxiety that I would just refuse to do, and I think we can be made to be like the bad child or the difficult child. If we're not doing these things that we're expected to do, especially when you couple being a highly sensitive person with social anxiety, there's going to be a lot of things that we're going to say no to.
April: 18:03
And that we need to say no to.
Louisa: 18:05
Yeah.
April: 18:06
When you look back, how do you see your sensitivity showing up?
Louisa: 18:10
There were experiences that I would say no to. For example, one of my parents is Jewish, one of them is Catholic and I was raised more Catholic when I was a kid and then more Jewish when I was a teen. But we were supposed to go to confession and that was a thing that we were supposed to do and I went one time and felt very uncomfortable and I wouldn't do it again and in hindsight a lot of that had to do with, I think, both being highly sensitive and with social anxiety. Social anxiety is this deep fear of judgment and we go to a confessional to share all the things that we did wrong and then, for someone with social anxiety disorder, that can be really scary, Really scary yeah To put yourself in the place of judgment.
Louisa: 18:55
Exactly, exactly. We have to confess.
April: 18:58
Oh, that's really uncomfortable.
Louisa: 19:01
Yeah, and so I think for parents with highly sensitive kids and kids with social anxiety, thinking about how can we do this in a way and how can we help them, because I was the bad kid and we're not going to get bashed.
April: 19:14
And we get labeled and if we peel it back, it's that you're uncomfortable, you're anxious. What did you need instead?
Louisa: 19:21
I needed understanding. I needed someone to sit with me and ask what I needed in that moment. What were my fears? What was I really afraid of Because I believe I could have articulated that even at the age of seven why I felt uncomfortable. But it was more just do what you're told because they said so, mentality. I would have loved understanding, support and a gentleness there, but it was your stubborn. You're getting a consequence.
April: 19:48
I think that's what a lot of sensitive kids are missing is someone to slow down with them. Because what you said, the feelings, are there. Often they can be articulated with a little bit of help. Even as adults we can do that with ourselves.
Louisa: 20:03
Yes, that's one of my favorite practices asking yourself what do I need right now, when we're eating a meal or when we're going to the bathroom or when we're driving. Just having that be an automatic check-in time, what do I need right now and when? Asked the question, we often can articulate it at any age. That wasn't my experience as a kid, but it's something I can do for myself now that I do.
April: 20:27
That's right. It can be as simple as pausing and saying to yourself what do I need now? And just seeing what comes through. How do we pull apart discomfort from anxiety? Are they the?
Louisa: 20:40
same. A great question. I think I would probably put them on a continuum, hanging out together with nervous and doing the things that make us a little bit uncomfortable, maybe a little bit anxious, especially with social anxiety. But not let me just go after my biggest fear. That's not gentle and that often doesn't work well in our process.
April: 21:01
For me it helps thinking if I'm just uncomfortable or I'm a little bit nervous, then I know it's okay to lean in. But if I'm highly anxious, maybe it's a time to lean away. When I'm asking myself what I need, I often will check in okay, what's the level, and that will tell me how to respond. It can be hard to know, since that people were often expected to show up how everyone else is showing up. That's not always the best choice for our nervous systems.
Louisa: 21:30
That's really not. I recently started playing pickleball and so I was like performance anxiety, I want to get that serve in the right place, my teammates counting on me. So I did a couple lessons and I did some small group things, just eased into it and doing relaxation exercises before I serve to just slow down. And then with each time I think about it less and it just comes more easily. But it's this sort of gentle process, like I wasn't going to just jump in, having never played tennis or pickleball before, and then just go to open play and be a deer in headlights. I went for this kind of gentle route to have an intro into it.
April: 22:08
Taking the gentle route is a great approach for anything in life as an intensity, Giving ourselves permission to slow down, check in along the way. Take it step by step, with lots of space in between. Think with pickleball. Okay, first you're going to just hang out on the court or maybe watch some pickleball videos or just hold the racket and then maybe slowly play one to one and then play with a team or a quad. I don't know much about pickleball.
Louisa: 22:40
I remember Brené Brown talking about getting into it and I was like, oh, let me try that too.
Louisa: 22:45
Oh, yeah, I love her. So I was like, yeah, I really like her work. And when it comes to like, social anxiety and public speaking, I love how she talks about getting into the arena and doing the thing, and then, with social anxiety in that context, the fear is okay, because social anxiety is this big fear, intense fear of judgment. And then when we get into the arena and there's more than one person it's multiple people who will hear what we say. I think that can be super anxiety provoking. But we're doing the thing of getting into the arena and doing things that scare us. And she talks about not listening to the people in the cheats. They're not down there and they're with you.
April: 23:25
How do we not listen to the hecklers or the judgments? Is there a way to maybe push that outside of ourselves?
Louisa: 23:34
Yeah, I have different strategies that I like to use for that.
Louisa: 23:37
A little one that I've adopted is I think this came from intervention for kids, but I love it for adults too.
Louisa: 23:44
It's like, whatever the comments are that are made, we just envision them like a ball and then we decide, as it approaches, as the judgment the comment approaches is this true? We're assessing it and if we feel like this is really, this is something true, this is something I can learn from and I will take into consideration in the future, then we can take it in and we can receive it. If it's something that we're like, wow, that was just mean-spirited and unkind and unnecessary, then we can just take it and split it, break on the ground, just throw it, let it crash. If it's something where we're like there might be a little bit of truth there I don't know about that part Then we just imagine it's this little ball on where, on our shoulders, and we just let it sit there and we decide what parts will take, as we, as we do as HSP, we deeply process and we just consider it and then we decide whether or not we want to take it in.
April: 24:37
We're so suited for that processing and to look at people's intentions. We can easily feel into that if we take the yes Slow down and reflect. Yes, yes, and then it's much easier to digest the information and see what is useful for me here. And what can I just I love that metaphor just throw the ball of feedback and yeah on the ground.
Louisa: 24:58
Yeah, because that's where some of it needs to go, because it's trash and it's mean spirited and I think there's. So there's like kind of a shielding process to taking on those judgments and there's also in acceptance of there will be judgment and and not all people are for us and we're not for all people. And we're speaking to our people. We are being deep and raw and real and our people will see us and we will see them in that process. And I think with social anxiety, there can often be a real fear of being seen, a deep fear of being seen I like to look for. Social anxiety is to ask the question Is there anything that you'd love to be doing right now that you're fearful of doing?
April: 25:40
what are you holding yourself back from doing?
Louisa: 25:42
Yeah, one of the reasons I really leaned into social anxiety in my practice was because in specializing in working with heavy, sensitive people, I was seeing a lot of social anxiety and so I Started looking for it more and more, because it wasn't necessarily what people were coming in for, but it was the layer there that was getting in the way of of getting that job that they wanted or going on the dates or having those deep connected friendships and community that they like longed for. I'd love to tell you a little bit about my daughters are Highly sensitive, but so differently and I do to ask their permission to talk about them. But they're 11 and a half and seven and a half and they just couldn't be more different. Yet they're both sensitive. My older one is just more calm and introverted and my little one is just high intensity, extremely energetic. But I think little things that came up in raising them, that Knowing it was just so valuable to know that they're highly sensitive. One of my favorite little stories about my older daughter with being sensitive is that One of her favorite meals when she was three, four years old was chicken tikka matala, and then I remember exactly everything and where it was at the time and she was sitting there and she said mom, you know how they call this chicken tikka matala.
Louisa: 27:05
It's not actually a chicken, right? I think she had just turned four and I had to tell her the truth and I did, and she spit her food out. She shoved it away. She said I don't eat animals. I love animals. I'm not going to do that, I don't want to. To this day, hasn't eaten meat since. Yeah, just this deep passion for for animals and just yeah, so much empathy.
Louisa: 27:31
But I think one of the things that I hear dr Aaron talk about that I just love so much embracing whatever it is that I need as a highly sensitive person, but also getting uncomfortable, that push pull thing, and I think it's so valuable and raising kids, and so there's a protective element where I'm advocating for a warm fuzzy teacher, whoever that is, because that's what works best for my kids and just doing that advocacy to help set them up to be successful. I think this has been so important for me. But then also letting them get uncomfortable and have these experiences. And if you would have told me Then that my kids are gonna be playing travel soccer, super intense playing in a position called center, attacking midfield. This is what they chose and what they pursue and it's super intense, but they know what to do to take care of themselves. Now, even in busy tournaments, there's things that they do that I didn't know they did.
Louisa: 28:30
My older one, as you were talking, and I told her about this podcast and she was excited and she was like, yeah, you can talk about me and I learned some things about her like that. I didn't know that. She told me soccer is actually a meditation for me. She was like you know how I take like really powerful kicks. She'll take the penalty kicks sometimes or like the corner kicks and they are strong and people sometimes Said that she had like a big boot, which I guess means that she had the powerful kick. Oh, she was like I never told you this before, but when I take those kicks, like the reason that they're so strong is Because I take everything that's happened to me since the last time I played soccer and I'm standing there and I just think about it and I just send it all to my foot and I let it go that's incredible, just the awareness and the Relationship to emotion at such a young age and I see you getting emotional about it.
April: 29:23
And you talk about sensitivity being strong. That where that comes from, from your daughter.
Louisa: 29:28
Yeah, and actually domain name for my website strong and sensitive, calm.
Louisa: 29:33
It actually came from my oldest daughter.
Louisa: 29:36
I started my private practice in 2019 and so she was around six years old and I told her like I'm, I want to start a private practice and work for myself and I just loved working with sensitive people and so I'm thinking something with the word sensitive or sensitivity.
Louisa: 29:53
And she got quiet for a while and then she was like I like that and that's true, but I think that maybe you should include something about being strong, oh, and I was like can you tell me some more about that? And she was like going to school all day, all those bright lights on the ceiling, having all these experiences that we have no control over, it's so overwhelming and it's really hard. Even with a kind, gentle teacher, it's still a lot. And just being subject to some of the really mean things that can be said in school settings. And she was like I think that it's harder to do that as a sensitive person, and so I think that sensitive people are actually really strong to be able to feel all of this and do it anyway. So I think we're strong and sensitive.
April: 30:44
So insightful. Yeah, that's great, that's just something I'm starting to realize recently. Yeah, and I think it sounds like a testament to how much you've poured into your children that they are able to go out and do all these things and defy the typical HSP stereotype because they have all the support and care and attunement. It's just a reminder of what we are capable of. Yeah, when we get what we are, when we get it.
Louisa: 31:10
Exactly, it's that differential susceptibility piece that we can be more helped. And that's not to say there weren't really hard things that happened. There were some really hard things that happened that they've overcome with support. And I love the strong and sensitive concept. And then, after she said that, I pondered on that for a while and I just thought about because I used to work in community mental health and substance use treatment centers and in school settings and gang involved populations and among all of those there were tons of highly sensitive people, people who had traumatic experience after traumatic experience happened to them or getting bullied or some of these really intense, awful experiences, and they were so strong, like they keep getting up, and just made sense to me. It clicked.
April: 31:59
She's right, she's exactly right, and it's such a good reminder that life doesn't have to be perfect. You don't have to have the perfect amount of support to overcome trauma, to overcome hardship, to thrive. A little goes a long way. Like you said, with the differential susceptibility, we're hurt more, but we're also helped more.
Louisa: 32:20
Yeah, like in therapy, just so many highly sensitive clients who are just please give me the book recommendations, tell me the podcast, send me all of the things. What medications I just I want all of it. I want to read everything and sometimes, when that's where they're at and they're just like wanting to work intensely, it is a deep and sometimes a quick process when that's the energy that they're bringing.
April: 32:42
Exactly, if we're able to lean in a little bit more, so much becomes available. So just be careful not to get stuck in the perceived limitations of sensitivity.
Louisa: 32:53
Absolutely.
April: 32:54
It's a lie.
Louisa: 32:55
It is a lie it does. That does not need to be true for us at all. Even with difficult experiences. I had a lot of really difficult experiences, especially as a kid. Things don't have to stay that way.
April: 33:08
That's right. They don't have to stay that way. I'm the same. I often am surprised at what I'm doing now, based on what I went through earlier, and I really do think it's because of my sensitivity. Yeah, I've been able to use that as a resource and do so. I'm so impacted by what I'm able to give myself now Because I see a lot of people that grew up similarly the way I did that are not thriving.
Louisa: 33:34
Yeah.
April: 33:35
And so it is helpful to remember okay, sensitive to being can actually be quite an asset.
Louisa: 33:39
Yeah, that ability of intuition that often comes along with it, and intuiting things about people, I think is so valuable. It can get tricky sometimes that piece coupled with social anxiety, because we're looking for that judgment, but it's super valuable.
April: 33:58
If there was one message that you could share with HSPs who are on the journey to accepting themselves more deeply, who may be struggling with social anxiety, is there a message you could leave them?
Louisa: 34:10
I would say that whatever you want is possible. Whatever it is that you want in life is possible. With social anxiety it's often on the other side of bravery, but it doesn't have to be super intense and difficult and it can be a slower, gentler process. There's so much beauty on the other side of that and that not everybody has to like us. They really don't. They really don't, and accepting that, I think, is really important. But I think that it's so important to just let the beauty within each of us radiate and shine because it's there. And I think oftentimes with social anxiety we're hiding beautiful parts of ourselves for fear of being judged and then the connections and the people that we want to draw in can't really see us if we're not really sharing and showing who we are and all of the beauty that's within us as we open ourselves up more, we might create opportunities for more connection as well.
April: 35:10
Absolutely. Not just judgment. There's more of a possibility. Yeah, yeah, like the fear is telling us.
Louisa: 35:14
Exactly. I feel like I could talk about this for so many hours. I love this topic so much. I think one thing that I would love to touch on is just that sometimes there's like a combination of things that I see in the clients that I get to support, things like the perfectionism along with high sensitivity, along with social anxiety, along with some relational anxiety and by that I mean attachment wounds and how that shows up and often complicates the social anxiety experience and really teasing apart. Is it that anxious, avoidant or disorganized attachment wounding that's telling me that I have to grip on so tightly to this connection, or a fear that I'll be abandoned? And when that's coupled with social anxiety? I think it's really important to tease all of those elements apart to see what's what as a clinician, and also for clients to think about. What is my attachment style? If I'm anxiously attached and I have social anxiety, how can I work through both of those things? While they're two distinct, unique experiences, sometimes they do see them show up in someone and those are worked through differently.
Louisa: 36:34
I think that's important to know.
April: 36:36
So maybe look a little bit closer to see what other components are intersecting with your sensitivity, with your social anxiety, exactly With your high sensitivity.
Louisa: 36:47
If there's traits of co-dependence, where we're looking at extreme people pleasing and extreme fear of setting boundaries, where is that coming from? To look at the interconnectedness of those elements and see if any of those things are true for us, because those are different processes different experiences.
April: 37:06
What would the first step be in starting to tease co-dependency, anxious attachments or insecure attachments, social anxiety apart? What does that process look like at the beginning?
Louisa: 37:18
Knowing if we're highly sensitive. There's a process for each one of those elements that you mentioned right. There's an HSP quiz that we can take right. There's things online that we can look at Do we have social anxiety we can look at? Do we have co-dependence? There's amazing resources out there that I love. There's all of these attachment style quizzes. What I love about some of them is they don't just say oh, you are anxiously attacked. I'm thinking of one in particular. They'll show you this pie and it's anxious, avoidant, organized, secure. You can see that pie. I think that in some of the questions, I'll actually talk about it not just from a romantic relationship perspective, but also in friendship. I think a common misconception is that anxious and avoidant attachment are more the romantic relationship thing, and they're not. They show up in friendship constantly.
April: 38:10
Yeah, all our relationships.
Louisa: 38:12
Yeah, at work with our boss, with our family.
April: 38:16
Anyone we're interacting with on a regular basis. We might see that show up.
Louisa: 38:20
Yeah, absolutely, I think, and the more mindful we are, the more present we are with it, the more we're using all of these different skills and tools that we've put in our back pocket that we know work best for us. We can use them in these situations and they can really help us. I digress a little bit, but I also love the concept for people who just start like I don't meditate, I'm not into it, I don't have time for it, I can't sit still. Something that I've adopted that worked for me and, frankly, because I was like that is a practice of listening to meditations as if they're a podcast.
April: 38:55
Let it wash over you.
Louisa: 38:56
Yeah, because we often get so, especially with social anxiety. We can get really in our heads and do a lot of negative, really soul crushing self-talk. That's really hurtful. And so I'll say, just like when you're getting ready in the morning maybe not while driving, of course, but when you're getting ready, when you're taking a nature walk just listen to some meditations. That really gave you that positive self-talk. If it feels hard for you to put that there, listen to meditations like a podcast.
April: 39:26
I think it's a great suggestion because sometimes our nervous systems will actually go into higher alert with stillness, which is if we've had trauma or we're in maybe our chronically anxious state. So it's actually not helpful to be still. We need to be discharging that anxious energy, that over arousal state. So movement meditation, active meditation, is just as valuable, especially if that's what you're needing. It goes back to checking in with yourself what do I need? Can I give myself permission to lean into that need and show up differently? And then I see other people showing up.
Louisa: 40:03
Absolutely, especially if we're like a highly sensitive person and we're dealing with conflict or we're socially anxious and highly sensitive and dealing with conflict. Maybe that walking meditation it's just what we need right before that anticipated interaction.
April: 40:18
Exactly. Well, just like you shared before pickleball, you get into a more relaxed state, don't ease some of those nerves and we can do that with anything. And you talked about the before, during and after of social experiences. I think that's a good suggestion for anything we do. Can we take a moment to process and charge ourselves up before, take a moment to check in during what's this experience like for me? And then after process and they'll absolutely I love that.
Louisa: 40:47
Yeah, like with conflict, yeah, with conflict. Exactly I feel before this and then during, and I think the more mindful I'd become amidst conflict I'm present in my body for it, the more I'm able to. This might sound like an oxymoron, but relax into the conflict and just being really present and saying what's true for me and not being overly passive or overly aggressive or passive aggressive in that conflict and not letting the delivery undermine the message of what I want to communicate. I'm saying what's true and I can best do that when I'm really present.
April: 41:25
Time to reflect and check in and check. What is the message I'm wanting to communicate and how can I best deliver that message?
Louisa: 41:33
Yeah.
April: 41:34
We actually talked in another episode about taking breaks during conflict and I just love that you also brought that up. Yeah, I think conflict is huge for HSPs.
Louisa: 41:44
I think that it's really hard and throw in social anxiety and it's all the harder. But if it's possible, I like to think about two or three key points in advance. If I'm anticipating a conflict because I know I can feel dysregulating to be in, especially if it's extremely negative, even toxic conflict two to three key points that I want to get across. If I feel dysregulated, that I really thought deeply about that I want to get across, and then it's easier for them to come to mind even in the midst of all of that.
April: 42:17
You had to have those anchor points Exactly Free, selected In the moment. How do you hold on to them? Do you write them down? Do you have them on your phone? Do you just, yeah, try to solidify them in your mind.
Louisa: 42:31
Yeah, I think, if I know that there's an anticipated conflict, maybe there's a situation with a teacher or something, or a parent, and there's something, that's a really big deal and it feels really big in my body and the way that I go about it is really deeply processing how it feels for me. But then also, what do I want to communicate? And if I were them and I were receiving it, how would I want to hear it? How could I say it in such a way that it would be taken and valued? And as I think of key points, I might put them in the notes in my phone and add to them. But I know I'm going to be thinking about them. I will Absolutely. So I like to write it down and fine tune it as I deeply process it. Yeah, so that I'm getting clear with them and how we can work as a team, just in a kind of way, as I can, if that's what it calls for. Sometimes it doesn't call for that.
April: 43:25
I appreciate that. Taking a moment to think about how will this message be received and do I need to adjust my delivery to make sure my message is heard? You know taking that time. Sometimes, like you're saying, it doesn't happen in quite that way.
Louisa: 43:38
Yeah.
April: 43:38
Sometimes things are unfolding in the moments. Mm-hmm, and even just saying is there any room to say well, I think I need to take a break, I need to come back to this conversation. This is important to me and I know I need to take a moment to reflect before we continue. There could be ways to build that in and be able to do your natural processing as an HSB.
Louisa: 44:00
Yeah, a question that I heard from someone that I loved is in the midst of conflict is to say what did you mean by that? Yeah, exactly, and then it gives you that time and space to calm down and it also gives them the ability to clarify what they meant, because with social anxiety, we're going to be thinking they're judging me, they're being critical. It was meant to be harsh oftentimes, but that may not be the case when we give them the opportunity to say yes or no and then we can proceed accordingly.
April: 44:29
To make sure you're clarifying along the way, because the anxiety is going to tell you a different story.
Louisa: 44:36
Absolutely.
April: 44:37
Check the story out.
Louisa: 44:39
Yeah, yes.
April: 44:41
What do you mean? Or this is what I'm hearing. Is that right?
Louisa: 44:44
Exactly. Don't walk away assuming that this person hates you Exactly Like. It's not necessarily that. It's often usually not that.
April: 44:53
It's true, Most of the time the anxiety has it wrong. Yeah, yeah, it is usually wrong, it's trying to protect, but a lot of times it's telling an old story and, yeah, creating opportunities for yourself to see is this actually true? Get more information.
Louisa: 45:11
Absolutely, and just like getting calm in our bodies through that conflict I think is so important. And then also, I believe this is something that Dr Aaron taught, but thinking about the volume, Of what you're saying. Yeah, and sometimes I'll turn up my volume. If I know that I'm speaking to someone who's just, who isn't sensitive, I will.
April: 45:34
Directness right, exactly Actual volume. Yeah.
Louisa: 45:36
Exactly yes, directness in my communication with them being crystal clear and maybe a bit more what to me as an HSP feels abrasive, but even so, simple as hey, would you mind getting back a little bit? I can't see the soccer field. I might feel abrasive, but for a nonsensitive person it's. Oh, it was just a basic request, no big deal. So just turning up the volume on that and my directness as needed, not dropping a hint like oh, it's a little cold in here, or just hey, could you turn up the heat. But also for me it means sometimes turning down the volume on someone else because they might feel like a tent out of pen to me. But then I'll ask myself are they sensitive? What do I think is the volume that they intended in that comment?
April: 46:22
So when someone is sharing something and maybe they're not highly sensitive, or maybe they're sensitive, but in an agitated state, how do you turn their volume down?
Louisa: 46:32
I try to put myself in their shoes and I think about OK, they're really triggered by this. This feels really big for them, or I don't experience them as being particularly sensitive and I think they're just being exceptionally direct and it feels a bit abrasive for me as a sensitive person.
April: 46:48
I'm just going to turn that down to a five, because that's all that I needed to take in, so they do zoom out to take in the full context of their temperaments, their situation, the context in which they're sharing the information that makes sense so we can filter a bit.
Louisa: 47:04
I like to do that because I don't. Oftentimes people don't intend for things maybe to come across as yelling, or maybe they're in an agitated state and I don't need to take that in and take that on. It's that process, like that intervention, of putting the ball on your shoulder. I don't need to take in that level of it. I'm just going to put it here for a moment and I'm going to turn the volume down accordingly and then I'm going to take in their message. Yeah, I work hard to not just absorb it.
April: 47:31
I don't know if this is too free, but sometimes I need to put the ball of feedback or communication outside of myself for a while as I figure out where I am, Because sometimes maybe I'm over-simulated, I've just had something emotional happen where I'm feeling tender or vulnerable, so that information sometimes feels more harsh than it's intense, not because of them but because of me, yes, we're in a more raw state and things hurt more when there have been other experiences and they're adding up.
Louisa: 47:58
I'm just going to table this text message that feels prickly to me right now because I'm feeling more raw and exceptionally sensitive, and I'll get back to that when I'm ready, when I feel calm and regulated and I can respond the way that I want to Exactly.
April: 48:15
So I think the message here lots of pauses, permission for lots of pauses, Lots of permission for pauses across the board, in all areas of life.
Louisa: 48:25
Absolutely as an.
April: 48:26
HSP.
Louisa: 48:27
Yeah, yeah, just a lot of mindfulness, exactly, and that's, I think, what we know to pause when we're being really present.
April: 48:43
Thanks so much for joining me and Louisa for today's conversation. What I hope you remember is that you can find connection amidst social anxiety and that sensitive people are strong and unexpectedly resilient because we feel so much in our lives and yet keep going. If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to the Sensitive Stories podcast so you don't miss our upcoming conversations. Reviews and ratings are also helpful and appreciated For behind-the-scenes content and more HSB resources. You can sign up for my email list or follow Sensitive Strengths on Instagram, tiktok and YouTube. Check out the show notes or sensitivestoriescom for all the resources from today's episode. Thanks for listening.
