59: Pros + Perils of Parasocial Connections
With Lana Holmes, Psy.D., LCP
Do you get overly attached to fictional characters, musicians, or other people who live in the public eye? In this episode, I talk with Lana Holmes, Psy.D., LCP about the pros and cons of parasocial relationships as well as:
• Why HSPs are more impacted by parasocial connections
• The purpose of parasocial relationships that serve as role models, provide a sense of belonging, or build self-esteem
• The downsides of forming attachments with fictional characters or public figures
• Ways parasocial relationships impact your real life connections and when it’s time to set boundaries
• Using your parasocial connections as clues to the values and traits you’re looking for in your real life connections
Dr. Lana is a Licensed Clinical Psychologist at the Center for Inclusive Therapy + Wellness. She's passionate about providing therapy that welcomes and celebrates marginalized, oppressed, and stigmatized communities. Her areas of clinical interest and expertise include: the intersection between mental health and spirituality, issues pertaining to BDSM, kink, and ethical non-monogamy; issues pertaining to BIPOC individuals, issues pertaining to LGBTQIA2S+ folx, trauma across the lifespan, life transitions, anxiety disorders, and depressive disorders. She currently has openings for online individual and couples therapy.
Keep in touch with Dr. Lana:
• Website: https://www.inclusivetherapywellness.com/lana
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lana-holmes-psy-d-348972186
• Email: inclusivetherapywellness@gmail.com
Resources Mentioned:
• Kink and Clinical Practice 101 Training: https://www.touchstoneinstitute.org/trainings/kink-and-clinical-practice-101-(self-paced)
• Luddite Club: https://www.theludditeclub.org
• Mass Communication and Parasocial Interaction Study: https://doi.org/10.1080/00332747.1956.11023049
Thanks for listening!
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This episode is for educational purposes only and is not intended as a substitute for treatment with a mental health or medical professional. Some links are affiliate links. You are under no obligation to purchase any book, product or service. I am not responsible for the quality or satisfaction of any purchase.
Episode Transcript
Dr. Lana Holmes: 0:00
We often overestimate the amount of social support that people have had in their lives or really healthy human connection, and one of the positive things about parasocial relationships is the idea that you can have a positive role model, because I can think of so many people who have had that experience, where they're like I didn't know anybody who had my life story or my experience and I saw this person who is a public figure and who's successful being who they are and it made me feel like maybe I could make it or maybe my life had meaning and purpose and I wasn't doomed to be whatever negative things people told me.
April Snow: 0:53
Welcome to Sensitive Stories, the podcast for the people who live with hearts and eyes wide open. I'm your host, psychotherapist and author, april Snow. I invite you to join me as I deep dive into rich conversations with fellow highly sensitive people that will inspire you to live a more fulfilling life as an HSP without all the overwhelm. In this episode, I talk with Dr Lana Holmes about the impact of parasocial relationships with your favorite fictional characters and public figures, such as musicians or actors, who serve as your role models, provide a sense of belonging or build self-esteem. We also look at the science that these attachments are getting in the way of your real-life connections and what to do about that.
April Snow: 1:33
Lana is a licensed clinical psychologist at the Center for Inclusive Therapy and Wellness. She's passionate about providing therapy that welcomes and celebrates marginalized, oppressed and stigmatized communities. Her areas of clinical interest and expertise include the intersection between mental health and spirituality, issues pertaining to BDSM, kink and ethical non-monogamy, issues pertaining to BIPOC and LGBTQIA2S, plus folks trauma across the lifespan, life transitions, anxiety and depression. She currently has openings for individual and couples therapy online. For more HSP resources and to see behind the scenes video from the podcast, join me on Instagram, tiktok or YouTube at Sensitive Strengths or sign up for my email list. Links are in the show notes and at sensitivestoriescom. And just a reminder that this episode is for educational purposes only and is not intended as a substitute for treatment with a mental health or medical professional. Let's dive in. So welcome Lana. I am so excited to have you back on the podcast.
Dr. Lana Holmes: 2:56
Hey, it's a pleasure to be back April. Thank you for having me.
April Snow: 2:59
Yeah, absolutely so. Listeners might remember you from episode 47, where you talked about honoring your thresholds as a Black HSP. A lot of folks love that conversation, but we're going in a little bit of a different direction today, talking about the HSP experience of parasocial relationships. So I'm wondering if you could share with listeners a little bit about how we came about this conversation today.
Dr. Lana Holmes: 3:22
Yes, thank you.
Dr. Lana Holmes: 3:23
Yeah, so actually it started from the last time that I was on the podcast, because I remember looking at, I think, some of your blog posts and newsletters where you were sharing how much of a music fan that you were, and I can definitely relate to that.
Dr. Lana Holmes: 3:35
I'm a huge music fan and I think after the last podcast episode recording, we were talking about kind of that experience of being a music fan and finding out that your favorite artist or band has been accused of something egregious and how, within these different fan communities, there could be a discussion about, like, how to deal with it, but also people's thoughts and feelings about it, and often, as I'm sure you know, viewers and audience members can relate to is one of the things people say. As I'm sure you know viewers and audience members can relate to, is one of the things people say is like oh, you know, just enjoy the music, like, don't think about what this person has done, and it's like well, but this like lives inside of me, like this music and everything that means for my life. It is a part of me, it's a part of so many memories that I've formed and experiences I've had that it's a painful experience to just extricate it, but then also like, how do I ethically, morally, like face these accusations as a consumer?
April Snow: 4:37
exactly because you're right, it's in our DNA. I mean, when I listen to old CDs that I've kind of pulled out of the archives of my storage unit or my back shed, it's like oh, these are so wrapped up in my memories, so when something does come up, that's problematic and we'll get into that a little bit more in a bit. It's pretty heartbreaking, right. It's like disorienting. What do I do with this, right? So, before we jump too far in, just for folks who may have not heard this term parasocial relationship because this is one I only learned maybe a year or two ago Could you define it for us before we go any further?
Dr. Lana Holmes: 5:15
Yeah, of social interaction dates back to a peer-reviewed journal article that was co-written by Donald Horton and R Richard Wohl or that's my German pronunciation, but it's probably Americanized as Wohl in 1956. And so, basically, a pair of social interaction denotes exposure to a public figure or even a fictitious character that elicits a socio-emotional connection from a viewer, fictitious character that elicits a socio-emotional connection from a viewer, fan, follower or consumer. Now, after repeated parasocial interactions, a parasocial relationship is formed in which the public figure or fictitious character is regarded in a way similar to a loved one, with deep emotional intimacy and personal identification. But here's the rub, it's one-sided. And personal identification, but here's the rub, it's one-sided.
Dr. Lana Holmes: 6:09
so like, obviously, if it's a fictitious character, that like it just doesn't exist at all, but like if it is a real life person who either their work is like themselves or their work is related to, you know, creating music or acting or et cetera is that person doesn't know about the emotional, psychological connection that a fan or a viewer is making with them, even if they're aware of it just as a general point of consciousness. It's not reciprocated, it's not like oh yeah, I'm calling you all the time or hanging out, I'm deeply involved in your life.
April Snow: 6:46
Right, that's such a good point that it's at the level of a loved one, so it's so deeply emotionally entangled for us as the I don't know the fan or the follower. But right, the other person has no idea.
Dr. Lana Holmes: 7:03
I mean, this seems kind of dangerous emotionally speaking it can. And I mean this is tricky. I think one of the things that I try to do when I talk about or even think about parasocial relationships is it's common, because I think sometimes there can be this like self-righteousness when people talk about like oh my gosh, that's like so stupid and weird and like why would anybody do that? But I think everyone to some degree, even if you're not consciously aware of it, has made that kind of connection at some point in their life. I mean, think about when we were kids. I think a lot of us very easily latched on to people on our favorite kids' TV shows in a very deeply emotional way and then you know we probably can recall those conversations with parents or teachers being like well, you know, barney isn't real sweetie.
April Snow: 7:48
You know like.
Dr. Lana Holmes: 7:51
Barney is not coming to your birthday party and is not going to. You know, be your best friend. But even as we go through other stages of development, there can be those deep emotional connections and so it is quite commonplace. But I think it has more to do with recognizing it and the degree to which we engage in that and the impact that has on us.
April Snow: 8:16
Yeah, so what you're helping me realize is that there are probably levels of attachment.
April Snow: 8:21
Right, and some can be really casual and maybe some go as far as being, you know, overly enmeshed and a tie in. It's funny when you said being kids. I remember being two years old and my favorite show was Lassie and I was so attached that I would get really upset about taking a nap because I was so afraid of missing the show, because I loved it so much and that was my first parasocial relationship. Right now, now that I'm realizing it and it's gone on and you know, on throughout my life, yeah, and I can imagine HSPs particularly maybe being more likely to deeply attach. Given our emotional expansiveness, responsiveness, you know we tend to go deep in our interests and attachments. Can we talk a little bit about that, how an HSP might experience these relationships?
Dr. Lana Holmes: 9:13
Yeah, no. So it's interesting because, at least for me, when I was looking at available peer reviewed journal articles and research on this, there hasn't been anything that I've seen as of today's recording that specifically focuses on.
Dr. Lana Holmes: 9:26
HSPs and parasocial relationships or parasocial interactions. However, like you were stating, one of the things I was like well, because it's such an emotionally and psychologically driven phenomenon, that or phenomenon, excuse me is the fact that, like hsps, we are emotionally expansive people, very emotionally attuned, empathic that there could be a particular vulnerability for us of just kind of like automatically, kind of becoming like really enveloped in the parasocial paradigm yeah, it's true, I was sharing with you earlier how I've started to realize all the different types of parasocial relationships I have personally and not really realizing it before because it just has seemed pretty natural.
April Snow: 10:14
And a big one is a musician which we share that love for music and one of my favorite musicians is Brandi Carlile. And I've noticed throughout my life I've had my favorite musician. That's been like the number one spot. It shifts as I shift. But I've been watching clips on YouTube of clips of old concerts and just seeing the progression of her career and realizing like I feel proud of her. It's so funny Like a sister, like a sister Because I've seen her go from. We have kind of similarities in our backgrounds where she grew up very poor with an alcoholic father and has had to really fight to progress in her life and I'm like, oh, I can really relate to that. So I think it makes me more susceptible to attaching and I'm like, oh, look, she's doing so great and she's getting more notoriety and and I just appreciate how she lifts people up along the way in that and I think there's like a values connection as well. So I'm just as I was thinking about our conversation, I was like oh, this is really layered for me.
Dr. Lana Holmes: 11:19
It is, and I think thinking about the layers of degrees. Typically, if people envision you know someone who's involved in a parasocial relationship, they think about the most extreme case, which you know is someone who's like, obsessed or will frequently cross boundaries with the object of the parasocial relationship. But for a lot of people it's about I can relate to you and I think this is one of the reasons again, I approach this with sensitivity, because I think we often overestimate the amount of social support that people have had in their lives or really healthy human connection. And one of the positive things about parasocial relationships is the idea that you can have a positive role model, someone that you relate to and you're like, because I can think of so many people who have had that experience where they're like.
Dr. Lana Holmes: 12:14
I didn't know anybody who had my life story, my experience, and I saw this person who is a public figure and who's successful, being who they are and it made me feel like maybe I could make it or maybe my life had meaning and purpose and I wasn't doomed to be whatever negative things people told me. And also I mean you even think about certain groups that particularly think about marginalized, oppressed and stigmatized groups. There are certain public figures where it's been this like point of pride and esteem that, like, this person is succeeding and doing incredible things, which is a positive representation of our community. So, you know, that's like those are actually like not only natural things that help us connect to any fellow human being, but also it's one of the positive things, things about that of people being able to say, oh, there are other folks out there that I can relate to and it can be a source of inspiration that can motivate people to make their own accomplishments the layers of the parasocial relationship, or sometimes it is a role model.
April Snow: 13:23
It's maybe some twinship, where you see yourself reflected in another person and it's inspirational, it's hopeful and those are incredibly positive right, and maybe it gives you something to keep moving forward. Mm-hmm, and I know there's also a downside, maybe a dark side. Something I've seen for myself is musicians I've grown up loving. Recently I've realized, oh, they have problematic politics or there's been egregious acts they've committed or some controversy and I can't ethically support those musicians anymore. So can we talk a little bit about the downsides? We hinted at it already, but let's go into that more. What are the downsides of forming these attachments with either fictional characters or musicians or public figures?
Dr. Lana Holmes: 14:11
Yeah, no, definitely.
Dr. Lana Holmes: 14:12
I think one of the things is, you know it can be people can have a dependency on the parasocial relationship or the parasocial, you know, public figure as a source of emotional fulfillment, esteem or human connection.
Dr. Lana Holmes: 14:28
Also, there can be an accurate, maladaptive understanding of relationships. So, specifically, relationships are characterized by, like the willing act of participation of both parties and are reciprocal. Like the willing act of participation of both parties and are reciprocal. And so if people are just kind of like, oh, I'm idealizing this person and the parasocial relationship that, like reforming it can kind of make people think like, oh well, you know, this person just is everything that I could ever want and it's perfect, and it's kind of even within my control, and that's how every relationship should be. And it's like, and it's kind of even within my control, and that's how every relationship should be, and it's like well, no, like, people are always going to have their own sense of personal agency and relationships are collaborative and even really healthy relationships are going to have disagreements or conflict or people have different beliefs and opinions, and so how can you work through that instead of being like you have to be everything I could ever want or need in a person, or else it's not worth it.
April Snow: 15:26
It's really setting people up for failure in relationships.
Dr. Lana Holmes: 15:30
Yeah, if it's not checked right, because I think if you have that self-awareness of like, this person is a role model or an inspiration, but I know like there is no interface between us then you could kind of be like, yeah, I'm looking for those qualities and characteristics in others, right, like. But if it's kind of like no, you know, it always has to be like this idealized version that I've formed in my head. That's when it can be really hard. Also, you know, something that can be a risk too is placing less effort in forming and maintaining real life relationships so kind of what we were already talking about or at least not prioritizing those relationships. Also, another thing can be making the parasocial relationship the center point of one's identity or life or life, and that can take a number of forms, like.
Dr. Lana Holmes: 16:25
I've definitely seen examples of people where it's like that is who they are as a person, like they love this public figure, or like, and that's like everything that is. But also I've seen examples where people have devoted a lot of money to their favorite public figure in a way where it's like and I'm not just talking about like a few things here and there, or splurge, I'm talking like repeatedly dedicating a huge sum of money to their favorite public figure, and sometimes people will act like it's almost like pledging fealty, you know where it's. Like I must like, I have to like show up for this person, like anytime that they're like I have to like show up for this person, like anytime that they're creating something I have to, or going back to, like if there's a public figure that gets into trouble and has, you know, any kind of allegations or whatever lodged against them, there can be people who will. I mean, I've heard stories of people who took time off of work, traveled across several states or even to another country to show their support to their public figure.
Dr. Lana Holmes: 17:26
And I'm like, oh, and there are people who are just like it's like the sense of mission and one of the things I'll have is I'm like, well, if there was somebody in your family or your friend group or community or even in your place of work that like needed that level of support, you be like, yeah, I'm dropping everything and helping this person out. And usually the answer is no, because there have been like high profile cases where it's been pointed out like hey, you know, this issue that this person is facing is a larger scale issue that affects a lot of people who maybe don't have the same kind of power and influence. And may you know, if you really are concerned about it, like maybe this could be an opportunity to get involved in like this broader movement to address this issue. And usually what will happen is, once it's resolved with, like the public figure, people pack up their stuff and go home.
April Snow: 18:14
What you said was interesting about how will you show up for the people in your life? The way you show up for the people in your life, the way you show up for this person, you don't know right, no and a balance there there is such an imbalance there and I think it's an important point of consideration.
Dr. Lana Holmes: 18:31
I think the other kind of downside of parasocial relationships, too, is, again, this is not common, but it's when people cross interpersonal boundaries, so this can take the form of you know, one of the examples I can think of is like people basically making inappropriate communications or contact with their favorite public figure. I can also think about and this has happened a lot online in particular like if there is a fan base that loves a particular public figure and somebody criticizes that person or that group or whatever. There will be death threats or people who said, like you should kill yourself. It should never reach that point of you know calling for someone's death just because they don't like someone or they have concerns about what somebody's saying or doing it gets really extreme, yeah, and it becomes their whole personality, really like.
April Snow: 19:35
This is my whole life is centering around this person, this figure, this you know, you know this character, whatever it is yeah, that feels really dangerous.
Dr. Lana Holmes: 19:45
Yeah, it can feel really dangerous, but you know, to balance it out in terms, of like some of the other things we hadn't mentioned that's on, you know, going back to the positive sides is it can connect people to other people. So, again, like, one of the things that's a concern is like, like what's your in real life social support network? And there's been really beautiful stories of people who said, like I was able to tap into a subculture or into a fan community of people where I formed real life relationships and, you know, felt a sense of belonging that wasn't just focused on this particular point of interest, but also abandoned and other things you know, and so that it can kind of, in the more healthy, adaptive side of things, be a bridge for people to connect to other people where they're like well, this is something we all have in common and we all like, and so this can break the ice and like help me to reach out to other people, you know.
April Snow: 20:43
Right, it's a point of shared connection. So the parasocial relationship could then be a pathway to in real life connections and attachments. So how do we find that balance? How do we maybe start to detach from the public figure, set some boundaries and then maybe move more into real life connections?
Dr. Lana Holmes: 21:04
Yeah, so I think it really depends on the person and on the amount of social support in their life right and their resources. I think it's important to recognize that there's a difference between being deeply moved by somebody's work or by you know their life story and versus becoming like a devotee of them Right, so that there was like that distinction and I think what can be done is like redirecting one's time and energy to forming and maintaining relationships in real life. So, for example, if there's an actor who played a character that you admired for their charisma or morality or intelligence or kindness, you can look for those traits in people rather than just being like I just have to kind of really like just focus on this person or this character as being like the source of those qualities, right?
April Snow: 22:09
That's really helpful to think about, because there's a reason you're drawn to this person or this character. Right, it could be this actor, but in this specific role it's like, yeah, what is it about them? What values do they have? What traits do they have? What experiences I love this. Almost feels like a hack of sorts, like a way to tap into what you're looking for in your relationships.
Dr. Lana Holmes: 22:32
Right, yeah, and I mean it can be just like kind of a impetus right for that, where you're like oh, you know, I really want to find somebody who is like that and again realizing that like a character whether it's completely fictitious, or like a character you read in a book or is being portrayed in a film or a television show that you know it's not going to be this like idealized, perfectly formed situation that you have complete control over, but you could go like, yeah, you know it's not going to be this like idealized, perfectly formed situation that you have complete control over, but you could go like, yeah, you know, this is something for me to hold on to as a positive example and that I can look for.
Dr. Lana Holmes: 23:10
So I think there's that.
Dr. Lana Holmes: 23:11
But I think also just going back to like basic interpersonal skills and social skills and just being like, well, realizing that public figures are people, and I think sometimes, with the way that we've all been conditioned around fame and celebrity and people who do public facing work is there's kind of been this idea of like, well, it's what they signed up for.
Dr. Lana Holmes: 23:34
But I feel like over the past couple of decades, public figures have been more transparent over the fact that they're like I didn't sign up for this. I didn't sign for my privacy to be invaded or for people to be rude to me or for people to do things that are really scary and upsetting, and so I think it's important for people not just to make assumptions that, oh well, because you're doing public facing work, that means that I am entitled to do and say whatever I want to you and you just have to accept it. Because I've also seen some language where people who have kind of been like well, if I have paid money for your work or your services, then I can do whatever I want and it's like you owe me, like it's transactional, it's like well no.
Dr. Lana Holmes: 24:17
So I think it's always important to think about like would you do this with any human being?
Dr. Lana Holmes: 24:22
right is this like healthy, appropriate, ethical, lawful behavior to do to anybody? And if you're like, well, no, it wouldn't be then to be able to like pull back and go, like, okay, well, what is the actual real life exchange? Right, you know what is the appropriate like point of interface between me and this person, given that? So, for example, if you go to a concert and you meet your favorite band, you know, and you get an autograph of being able to be like that was a cool, casual, short-term interaction I'm gonna hold with me for the rest of my life.
Dr. Lana Holmes: 25:03
But that doesn't mean like, and this person is my best friend now and I should get an invitation to their wedding, or, if I'm in financial trouble, like they should pay my bills, you know, or things like that or have the right to critique what they do in their lives or their partners.
Dr. Lana Holmes: 25:21
Because, like I think, with you, me being a music fan, how many examples not just music, honestly, but even in acting of like there have been fan bases that, let's say, your favorite actor or musician gets a partner, and there will be people who as almost as if they were friends yes, you know, just saying like, I don't think that they're right for you.
Dr. Lana Holmes: 25:43
And it's like, even with some examples where it's like, okay, yeah, this person has said, done, some things are really upsetting. Do is it appropriate for fans to be like we are going to make petitions and right, you know, or or like dedicate opinion pieces to say like you shouldn't date this person. It's like no, that's a personal choice. And again, like that's crossing a line because you are not directly involved in that person's life and you don't have that kind of relationship where you have the right to say like you shouldn't date this person. And because we are your fans or your followers or consumers, then we are going to try to put pressure on you and yeah, yeah, I mean, I've seen that so many times.
April Snow: 26:34
People do, they get attached, they maybe feel protective or feel a sense of access. That is a little extreme. Yeah, I remember access. That is a little extreme, yeah, I remember. So Trevor Hall is one of my favorite musicians and I remember seeing him when he years ago, when he was just playing in like small little music shops, and I remember when he started dating his wife and people were not everybody, but some people were not happy about that. He was not going to be single anymore, and you see this all the time. I see it in the queer community too. If, like, there's someone who's bi or pansexual and they're dating a woman but then they date a man and then there's some anger and emotion that gets brought up. There's just so many examples of this right, where there's that possessiveness or feeling like you have a say over someone's choices, it can be really dangerous.
Dr. Lana Holmes: 27:27
Right, or how people can feel let down or feel like my identity is contingent upon you making these certain choices in your personal life, and it's like you are who you are Like that's.
Dr. Lana Holmes: 27:43
The other thing to consider is like, whoever you are, however you identify, it's not going to change just because this person that you idolized may all of a sudden make a decision that contradicts your own personal identity. And so, yeah, when people are kind of like this and I've also even seen it with fictitious characters, I'm sure that you followed up like how there have been like different literary characters, some of them who've been around for centuries, even longer, where folks will speculate about like well, really, this is the identity of this person and you can tell from all of these context clues. And sometimes it's true, sometimes, like, given the particular time period, that certain authors wrote characters, they had to be very judicious about how they wrote them because you know it wouldn't have been published and there would have been a huge backlash for sure, however, the issue, absolutely, but there are also some times where, you know, there have been a number of authors that have been very clear about like, their decision making of like.
Dr. Lana Holmes: 28:50
This is who this character is inspired by, this is who they're supposed to be. This is like my kind of sketch of their like, identity and their choices, and there will be people who, even knowing that, will be like no, no, no, no, no. I know better than this author about like, who this person really is, and there will be again that possessiveness of like. This character has to be like me. This character has to represent this community, or else and it's like can't you still love this character and get inspiration from them, even if they're not like you?
April Snow: 29:25
yeah, exactly right, you get to still them, even if they're not like you. Yeah, exactly Right, you get to still be yourself, even if this character is different than you originally expected. And I understand you know there's great disappointment. That can happen and, as an HSP, I felt that disappointment, whether someone I realized was unethical, or I realized, maybe, oh, they're actually not queer I really wanted them to be, or it was unethical, or I realized maybe, oh, they're actually not queer, I really wanted them to be, because we need more queer representation and there's a little bit of heartbreak, right. However, it's important to keep that perspective in mind, of it's okay.
Dr. Lana Holmes: 29:57
Right, it's okay, and I think, even though for any of us that belong to marginalized, oppressed and stigmatized community because I'm know, I'm Black and I'm bisexual and I'm- a woman you know is, even though, yes, there are always going to be privileged or dominant groups that, like you will frequently see represented in media or even like kind of being lauded as public figures, there are still people where you know, like I know, this character is me.
Dr. Lana Holmes: 30:24
They were designed to represent this community that you could go to, so that's another hack of if you're like I wanted this particular character to be just like me because I just love them so much, is it's like, well, are there characters that you already know from the jump, like come from your community, that you could identify with from the get-go to get that need met, instead of saying like, no, this character, it has to be this way, because I can think of just thinking about books, like there are a number of characters from different genres that are now, you know, coming from my communities that I can look at and go like, oh yeah, like I already know, because, trust me, I understand there have been times in the past where I would like kind of have that like, oh man, like it would be great to see, like a black woman in this book and you know, doing these kind of cool things.
Dr. Lana Holmes: 31:23
But they're not there and you know. But at the same time, it's like now, as an adult, like I can find a lot of that literature across different genres where it's like, oh, it's just here, like this is great, and I can still love that other stuff for what it is yeah, right, it's just having to look, maybe a little longer, a little harder for the characters that do represent you yeah yeah, but yeah, we always.
April Snow: 31:47
I mean, I always wish like there's never enough lesbian movies or shows, and so I'm always looking for that.
Dr. Lana Holmes: 31:54
I'm like, oh, can I just please have some more, yeah, and I think sometimes the feeling is like why isn't it readily available? Because I think, because when you, even when you're saying that, like why aren't there enough lesbian you know books or shows, it's like I can think of you know, certain movies or things that I grew up with, like, particularly I was a big, I've always been a big lover of independent film and particularly there was this kind of renaissance of independent queer cinema. I think it was like officially called like the new queer cinema in the early 90s that you know kind of rippled out. And so, even though, yes, like it would be great for us to catch up to the point where it's like, oh, you know, know, it's like happening at the same frequency as like straight characters at the same time, it's like it's not as if it absolutely doesn't it's true, exist.
April Snow: 32:54
You're absolutely right, because there will be times where I stumble upon something oh how did I not know this existed, right, and so it's like it's out there. But you're right, it's not as out in front. I have to do a little bit of digging, a little research, yeah, which thankfully is not that hard these days. Right, yeah, upon google or reddit or wherever you find your information.
Dr. Lana Holmes: 33:17
Yeah, yeah, it's there yeah, or even if there's a certain database. So, like you know let's say you have a streaming service of see if you can use some of those search tools to find the kind of films or television shows that like feature, the kind of characters that you're looking for, so that you can be able to find that. So it's just like.
Dr. Lana Holmes: 33:39
I think it's just more about like reframing it right instead of just being like I have to like whatever I get, like it has to present me, or I have to kind of make it fit. All of my needs is being able to go like okay, well, is there stuff out there like that? I haven't even considered that searching for that I could get that already was designed for me you know?
April Snow: 34:02
yeah, exactly yeah. So it sounds like doing a little bit of research and reflection. Also, I hear an underlying message today is diversify with where you're connecting with.
Dr. Lana Holmes: 34:15
You know what you're attaching to a mixture of in real life and parasocial, not just putting all your eggs in one basket yeah, no, no, because I mean, even though, like, I think also there's a sense of like, positive emotions that can be derived from parasocial relationships. I think also it's important to understand of like you need people in your life to be able to, like, give you love and support and show up for you, and I think if there's this kind of reliance on like I will, I feel like I can only get that of being able to, you know, branch out and, in fact, like I would say, like my key take-home message for people is parasocial relationships are common.
Dr. Lana Holmes: 35:06
They can help us better understand our emotional, interpersonal needs. Still, you know, for long-term, comprehensive social and emotional fulfillment, it's important to have supportive, real life relationships and if that's a struggle, it's important to get the help that you need to find that which can come from a licensed mental health professional, for example. How we communicate with each other, meet with each other, it's often taken for granted that people have the kind of ability, skills and resources just to like form relationships or that, like already people came into the world with a baseline of healthy support and there are so many people, as I'm sure you can relate, who didn't have that, and I mean there are lots of people. I think, whenever there's some kind of controversy that erupts around a public figure, where there's so many people who are like this was like I didn't have like a healthy parental figure in my life, so this person, you know, kind of became that surrogate for me. Or you know, I had struggles making friends growing up, so like I was able to take comfort in this cast of characters that became like friends for me. So I think it's important to have that kind of care and compassion for people that, instead of just kind of castigating them and saying, oh, like, why would you do that? That's so just gross of being able to go like, yeah, well, what, how are people not showing up in your life?
Dr. Lana Holmes: 36:47
Because, also, even when it comes to the number of people that I've worked with when it comes to trauma, there are a number of people who are like, people are scary and they're just like the idea of having a close relationship to someone is horrifying, because what if I get brutalized again, exactly, and so I think it's important to think about that of like.
Dr. Lana Holmes: 37:08
Has there been something that's happened that has made reliable, trustworthy, healthy support hard to find? And if that is the case, if that's why parasocial relationships seem so appealing, how can we help you to like, get these really like strong, reciprocal, affirming relationships in your life? You know and I think that's a broader question, not only on an individual level, but I think about how can we have the kind of social infrastructure in our societies again that make that more possible? Because I think you know, we've heard the news about the loneliness crisis and about how people, particularly in adulthood, are like how do I make friends, you know? And so I think it's a broader question where it's like how can we connect to each other again as people in real life?
April Snow: 37:59
Exactly. People are hungry for a connection, and this uptick in parasocial relationships, or the intensity of it, is a byproduct of that, and so parasocial relationships can tell you not just what you're looking for in real life, but what maybe you're not looking for right. Tells you a lot about how comfortable, safe you feel in relationship and maybe is a clue to what you've been through in the past. So I'm hearing to have lots of compassion for maybe, the people in your life who have strong parasocial relationships, but also for yourself.
Dr. Lana Holmes: 38:31
Yeah, for yourself, because I think there can be the assumption that people you know just have everything that they need and that they just willfully are not accessing it. Now, is that the case? Sometimes, yes, but I think when I think about you know, whether it be personal life experiences or you know, any of the clinical cases that I've worked with there are so many people who are like I came into the world without the tools and resources that I would need to accomplish this and there was nobody that taught me how to do this, so I had to make do with what was available and how painful it can be when people are like but you didn't know that, you didn't know how to do that, you didn't know that that was wrong, and it's like no, I didn't, and no one came in with solutions. No one came in with guidance or even alternatives. It was just like don't do this. But then it's like what do I have? Right, right.
April Snow: 39:33
What goes in its place, Right. So if people are realizing, oh, something might be missing or I'm struggling with connection, yeah. Getting support from a therapist right.
Dr. Lana Holmes: 39:45
Spending time in community yeah yeah, yeah, but yeah, and that's definitely like the on the more personal scale of things.
Dr. Lana Holmes: 39:54
But I think a longer term question and pursuit is like I've kind of had daydreams of like what would it be like for a licensed mental health professional sociologists, anthropologists like to come together and be like yeah, how can we create these kind of spaces that would naturally allow people to form and maintain relationships?
Dr. Lana Holmes: 40:17
Because I think we were talking before we got recording, about, like we are both ladies of a certain age and so we, I think, are part of certain generation of people or multiple generations of people really who remember what it was like, where it's like you had no choice but to be face to face with people and how there were multiple opportunities to connect with folks. And now a lot of those things have kind of gradually deteriorated to the point where you can't just easily be like yeah, you know, there are all these different places where I can meet people and strike up conversations and find commonalities and, you know, be able to build relationships from there. There are lots of people who are like I don't have that, it's not readily available in my area or I didn't grow up in that world, so that feels more foreign and distant than trying to connect with people through digital means or through media.
April Snow: 41:14
Yeah, exactly, a lot of those public spaces or points of connection have dissolved. And you're right, there are some folks who are younger than us who never have lived with that experience, so maybe don't even know where to start.
Dr. Lana Holmes: 41:27
Yeah, no, and so, basically, I guess what I'm saying is like I don't know, and I think it's important for all of us to try to figure out what are the solutions that we can implement, not only on a more individual, personal scale, but like how can you know? Like I said, people in all the fields I previously mentioned be able to go like, yeah, how can we find, like in real life, low tech or or no-tech ways of connecting people?
April Snow: 41:58
Yeah, exactly Right. This is a bigger systemic issue of how our communities, our culture is set up. It's so overly digital now?
Dr. Lana Holmes: 42:11
Yeah, no, and I mean I've seen some people make predictions which I can see this happening of almost there being a countercultural movement towards people going like yeah, let me actually devote more time to meeting people in real life and being able to connect and socialize without, you know, any digital devices or digital things to do.
Dr. Lana Holmes: 42:37
And I mean there already have been examples of that, like I heard about the Luddite Club, which was started at a Brooklyn high school and now several chapters across the US at different high schools, and I think there are like one or two undergraduate university chapters of it as well, and so that's a really great example of people going like well, how can we do this, like conscientiously, create this experience? And you know so far the kind of firsthand accounts of people who completed it, and the young people who completed said they were like oh, this is incredible. Yeah, this is such a great experience and it's really relatively simple. You know, like it's not like oh well, this is going to be very expensive or time consuming. It's just more about making these little tweaks and finding alternatives.
April Snow: 43:24
Yeah, I'm seeing that pop up around me as well. Just people gathering at a cafe or on the beach and just reading together or just spending time together. No phones, devices, you know people are really looking for that it's. We were talking about kind of the nostalgia of the 90s before we hopped on and yeah, I think you were implying this too, like part of that is that drawl of living in a time without constantly being in front of a screen.
Dr. Lana Holmes: 43:52
Yeah, no connection and still being able to get things done the way that you need to, because I think whenever there's a huge technological leap, it's almost hard to think about what life was before it or how you did things. But it's like we did it. People were able to do all the things that we heavily rely on technology to do now. Before without it, four without it, and there were again so many places and spaces for people to be able to connect and that you didn't have to be constantly aware of every single thing that was happening in the world at every moment and you still were well informed, you know so right, exactly, yeah, now we're kind of hyper informed, hyper tapped in it's.
April Snow: 44:36
It's like you don't need that to build relationships and connections. No, no, yeah. Well, lana, we're just about out of time, so I just want to thank you for everything that you shared today. It's been really eye-opening for me to look a little bit deeper into this. I don't know if that's the right word, but just this presence of parasocial relationships and what it means about how we're living as humans today. Yeah, I appreciate you coming back on and diving into this topic with me. It's an even more personal one that I realized and something I want you to think about, and I'll be sure to link all of your resources, your website, your contact information for folks. You have some continuing education resources. I'm wondering if you could tell folks a little bit about working with you if they're interested.
Dr. Lana Holmes: 45:21
Yes, so I am a licensed clinical psychologist. I'm licensed both in the state of Georgia, but also I have SIPAC licensure to see people who are in all SIPAC member states and primarily my work revolves around doing both individual and couple slash relationship therapy. Also, I have a kink and clinical practice 101 continuing education course. That is a beginner's level course designed for licensed mental health practitioners that are interested in working with folks who are involved in the kink and BDSM communities but they don't know what to do. They maybe feel kind of lost in the sauce about how to work with people in these populations. So I have that available as a self-paced course on the website for the Touchstone Institute and yeah, and so like, yeah, if people are interested in signing up for that, there's the link. And then if people are interested in working with me for individual or couple slash relationship teletherapy, I also have the link to my practices website.
April Snow: 46:22
Beautiful. Yeah, all those links will be in the show notes for folks. Thanks so much for joining me and Lana for today's conversation. What I hope you'll take away is that deeply connecting with your favorite musicians, actors, authors, public figures or fictional characters can be a helpful way to understand more about yourself and the types of relationships that you want to build in your real life, and also perhaps lead to connections with other people who share your interests. If you're interested in working with Dr Lana, go to inclusivetherapywellnesscom. Slash Lana L-A-N-A or head to the show notes for more resources. If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to the Sensitive Stories podcast so you don't miss our upcoming conversations. Reviews and ratings are also helpful and appreciated For behind-the-scenes content and more HSB resources. You can sign up for my email list. Recommendations, reviews and ratings are also helpful and appreciated for behind the scenes content and more hsp resources. You can sign up for my email list or follow sensitive strengths on instagram, tiktok and youtube. Check out the show notes or sensitivestoriescom for all the resources from today's episode. Thanks for listening.
