85: Big Feelings, Big Joy Part II
With April Snow, LMFT + Brian Torres, LMFT
Are you a highly sensitive person who thinks and feels deeply? In this episode, Brian Torres, LMFT talks with me about my new book, Big Feelings, Big Joy and:
How HSPs can tap into our positive experiences to protect against stress
The differences between overstimulation, overwhelm, and overload
Why daydreaming is an essential part of downtime for highly sensitive people
Defining the characteristics of high sensitivity through the new ORCHID acronym
Keep in touch:
April Snow, LMFT: https://www.sensitivestrengths.com
Brian Torres, LMFT: https://www.briantorrestherapy.com
Resources Mentioned:
Big Feelings, Big Joy book: https://www.bigfeelingsbigjoy.com/book
ORCHID research: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0191886926001467 and https://www.nature.com/articles/s41398-017-0090-6
Get your copy of my new book, Big Feelings, Big Joy anywhere you get your books or at https://www.bigfeelingsbigjoy.com/book
Thanks for listening!
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This episode is for educational purposes only and is not intended as a substitute for treatment with a mental health or medical professional. Some links are affiliate links. You are under no obligation to purchase any book, product or service. I am not responsible for the quality or satisfaction of any purchase.
Episode Transcript
April Snow 1:04
We feel our feelings more intensely. So we're going to feel the negative more intensely. But we don't talk enough about how we experience joy and positivity and excitement and awe and meaning more intensely. So big feelings, big joy is a nod to differential susceptibility.
Brian Torres 1:19
The ability to heal or to really take in the nectar of the good is something we also have. I love that this is the lens that we're going into this conversation.
April Snow 1:36
Welcome to Sensitive Stories, the podcast for the people who live with hearts and eyes wide open. I'm your host, psychotherapist and author April Snow. I invite you to join me as I deep dive into rich conversations with fellow highly sensitive people that will inspire you to live a more fulfilling life as an HSP without all the overwhelm. In this episode, I'm honored to have Brian Torres, a fellow highly sensitive therapist, interview me about my new book, Big Feelings, Big Joy. Brian and I originally met at one of Dr. Elaine Aaron's retreats around 2017 in Santa Cruz, California, and we've remained friends over the years, bonding over our love of sensitivity research, music, queer culture, and shared values. And during today's conversation, we explore how highly sensitive people can tap into our positive experiences to protect against stress, the differences between overstimulation and overwhelm, and why daydreaming is an essential part of downtime for us as HSPs. And just a reminder that this episode is for educational purposes only and is not intended as a substitute for treatment with a mental health or medical professional. Let's dive in.
April Snow 3:13
Welcome back to the podcast. And I'm really excited because we're gonna flip the script today and you are gonna interview me. So it's a nice change. So I'm gonna hand it off to you to ask me some questions.
Brian Torres 3:37
Love it. First of all, congratulations. Thank you. So awesome. I clearly read the book. And I love it.
April Snow 3:46
Yep, you got an early copy. Yep.
Brian Torres 3:47
Yeah. And I just have to say, just from like having known each other for a while now, and I really guess you're getting excited. You're writing a book because I can tell what's important to you. And it's stuff that I find important in the highly sensitive person conversation. I'm so glad that you're kind of pulling it all together in a really substantial way. So it's just really exciting to kind of be like, oh, this is such a like such a good book.
April Snow 4:13
Thank you. I'm gonna cry already.
Brian Torres 4:15
Yeah. Yeah.
April Snow 4:17
Oh, it means a lot to share, to share with you. Thank you.
Brian Torres 4:21
Yeah, thank you. Yeah. So the book, Big Feelings, Big Joy. I was curious because you know there's a lot of books out there or resources. And I was wondering, was there something you felt that might be missing from the HSP conversation that you really wanted to bring forward with your book?
April Snow 4:37
Yeah, there were a few key pieces that were really essential for me to bring into the conversation. And one is how do we live in the world now as HSPs? We're living in a very different world when Dr. Lane Aaron's book first came out in the late 90s. A lot has changed in how we live our lives and the culture that we're in, and just the level of overstimulation we're exposed to. So I wanted to bring that into the conversation.
Brian Torres 5:05
Yeah.
April Snow 5:06
Yeah, that was a big piece. And then knowing what we know now about the nervous system, we can bring in more resources and tools and language for that. And then the last piece is something we've talked about before, which is that not all HSPs are the same. And so I wanted to include more diverse stories about HSPs of different ages and backgrounds and races and gender identities and sexual orientation, just to show like our community is a lot wider than we realize. And, you know, we're all having, we all have a lot in common, but we're also having slightly different experiences under the HSP umbrella.
Brian Torres 5:45
Yeah. No, I mean there was something you said that really struck me. Yeah. Oh, because right, when you think about the highly sensitive person written, what, like some now 30 years ago. Yeah. Like they not to spoil anything for anyone, but there's a really useful section about phones and technology, which I was like, oh, finally, which is really useful. Like I really made me think about my relationship lately and stress and cortisol and the nervous system just being on a lot with the amount of stimulation. And it had me rethinking some of my practices and just the amount of contact I have with content and you know how that might be contributed to some like low-grade stress.
April Snow 6:23
Yeah, exactly. It's, I mean, obviously, everyone is impacted by excessive phone use, but we're more impacted at a subtle level and more than we realize. Yeah, there's just been a lot that's changed in how we live our lives that impacts us first and foremost. And you know, wanted to really bring that into the fold and say, okay, we need just another example of how we need to live differently as HSPs.
Brian Torres 6:48
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that something, you know, knowing a lot of the literature and sort of resources or the conversations around being highly sensitive, that can be seen as such like a negative thing sometimes. And I really love that from the get-go, like even in the title, right? Big feelings, big joy, that's such a big piece that you're at least my takeaway was that you're really highlighting the capacity for HSPs to feel the positive, to experience joy. And I was curious if that was something that was intentional or why was that important to you to highlight?
April Snow 7:22
Yeah, I mean, we hear so much about the negative, difficult experiences of HSPs. If you're on any online forum on social media, even in in-person events or communities, it's very negative forward. It makes sense because we feel our feelings more intensely. So we're going to feel the negative more intensely. But we don't talk enough about how we experience like joy and positivity and excitement and awe and meaning more intensely. So big feelings, big joy is a nod to differential susceptibility.
Brian Torres 7:52
I appreciate you naming that. Yeah.
April Snow 7:55
So just I wanted to get in there right from the start because it's my favorite part of being a highly sensitive person. I used to say it was like empathy or you know, intuition, but it is absolutely my favorite part. And it's such a, I don't know, an under-celebrated, under-recognized part of the trait. And I'm so and I think we'll talk about this in a minute, but I'm really excited that the new research is bring that into the list of HSP characteristics. Like, yes, that is a defining piece of our experience that I think makes it worth it for being highly sensitive. Like, if you can experience joy in the smaller moments with more intensity more often, bolsters you against stress and trauma and overwhelming. What a gift that is.
Brian Torres 8:38
Yeah. Especially, you know, well, for listeners, I'm also a therapist. And right, that piece around, yeah, the hard stuff feels really hard, right? You really take it to heart, you're sensitive to it. But the good stuff, like the ability to heal or to to really take in the nectar of the good, is something we also have, which I just love that that's even when the opening is a lot about that, which I was just like, okay, this is I love that this is the lens that we're going into this conversation.
April Snow 9:05
Yes. Yeah. The nectar of the good.
Brian Torres 9:11
Well, that's my sensitivity coming out there. I love that. Yeah.
April Snow 9:18
Yeah. I wanted to start off on that foot. I'm glad that that stood out to you.
Brian Torres 9:22
Yeah, that's I mean, it's there in the title, and then like the first, I don't know if it's the introduction or just first piece, but yeah, I'm just like, okay, we're off to the races, but like in the yeah, but this is gonna be the focus, which I like. I liked a lot. Yeah, another thing, just thinking about what's been written over time and changes. I know you mentioned change in research, but something that also stood out to me is this new acronym that you created. Oh,
Brian Torres 9:45
yeah. ORCID, which I know pulls from some famous HSP nerd hat here, like uh research from Tom Pluis, I think, right? Where they Michael Pluis. Michael Pluis, sorry. And then it's like naming flowers, but how HSPs are like ORCIDs. But I was curious, yeah, you're creating this acronym. One, if you'd be open to describing it, but also what do you think it like captures differently than maybe some of the old acronyms we were using?
April Snow 10:12
Yeah, it was definitely well, something I was excited about, but also thought a lot about because you know, we've for those in the know, we've used the DUS acronym for years now. And it's well known. And I was like, do I want to introduce a new term? But I really, really wanted something that felt relatable, that felt easy to remember, and that again highlights the positive of the traits. So you can easily embody each of the orchid characteristics. So you can say, like, I am observant, I am responsive, I am compassionate, I am heartfelt, I am impressionable, I'm a deep thinker. And you can, for me, when I say that, I want to own it. It's like that's exciting to me. I can claim that, and that really speaks to a big part of my sensitive experience. And I can relate to those terms. So let's say we say depth of processing. You and I know what depth of processing is so well. And we know it's such a core part of the trait, not necessarily the emotional component of being highly sensitive. But most people, when I say that to them, they have no idea what that means.
Brian Torres 11:16
Yeah.
April Snow 11:16
And so if I say I'm a deep thinker, okay, I kind of get maybe lost in my head, or I want to think through my decisions, or I want to reflect on my experiences, that is relatable to me. And I could imagine saying that to a client or to, you know, an everyday HSP who's not a therapist or researcher, and they're like, Yeah, I get that. That makes sense to me. Or if instead of saying, like, oh, I'm easily overstimulated, if I say, Oh, I'm responsive to my environment, you know, I see the good in the environment and I feel deeply about it, like, okay, I'm validating that sometimes it's also hard and I get overstimulated, but I'm not that's not the full picture. I'm encompassing all of it. So yeah, I really just wanted to translate does into a more accessible term.
Brian Torres 12:03
Yeah. Also, I don't know if you know Orchid is the name of a song by Linus Morrison, which is about being an HSP.
April Snow 12:12
So I made a soundtrack for the book.
Brian Torres 12:14
Oh, nice.
April Snow 12:16
And that's I'll have to share it with you. That is the first song on the playlist.
Brian Torres 12:20
Nice.
April Snow 12:21
It's such a good song. I remember at my last HST retreat, therapist retreat, we used that song and played it a lot. And it's so just it has a lot of personal meaning, but also just the feeling of the music is really palpable. Yeah.
Brian Torres 12:35
Yeah, I love it. Yeah, just what you said about just even I can't remember, there's another section in the book where you use words or terms as substitutes for sensitive because that can hold such a stigma. Yes. And when I hear you say responsive, right, instead of overstimulated, easily oversivated. Yeah, just give us more permission that like your sensitivity may look a little different, but words like responsive or um think trying to think of some of the other ones, just give more permissions. It's just not this one thing.
April Snow 13:02
Exactly. Right. Or impressionable, which I guess you could take that as a negative, but I'm thinking, you know, that's that again, that brings in the differential susceptibility. I'm more impacted by my negative and positive experiences. Like, oh yeah, I'm impressionable. I take things in instead of, you know, the more technical one, which would be sensitivity to positive experiences. I understand what that means, but I want something that feels like something I would just say in a natural conversation.
Brian Torres 13:30
Yeah. Yeah.
April Snow 13:31
That I could say to someone, and they're like, oh, okay, I understand what that means.
Brian Torres 13:35
Yeah, versus like getting too clunky with the therapy terms or the audience. Yeah. I appreciate that. I know that just from the highly sensitive person world, we talk a lot about self-care, what it is to be a sensitive person, and you know, acknowledging that you have the trait and then how to take care of yourself or design a life that's matches the trait.
Brian Torres 13:58
Right. So you write, of course, about downtime and the importance sort of the HSP North Star. Have to. Uh yeah. But what really like not maybe it was surprised is that you include the importance of daydreaming. And that's something I've never heard anyone like incorporate as like a part of self-care or downtime. And I'm just wondering how that came to be because it since reading that, it has really shifted where I'm like, I need more daydream time. And that feels like there's more permission in my downtime to like just let my mind wander.
April Snow 14:36
Yes, I know. It's like our downtime. Oh, yes, downtime is so important, but we've uh like co-opted it to be secretly productive. Like I'm gonna listen to this podcast, or I'm gonna read this self-help book, or I'm gonna catch up on my show, or whatever it is, or I'm gonna, you know, get this painting done. And when I was doing some research around depth of processing and how the HSP brain works, so we're gonna get a little nerdy for a moment. Yeah, I discovered that there's this region or this collection of parts of the brain called the default mode network, which makes sense. Like you're in default mode, your brain is in default mode, it's in off mode. And so when we're kind of getting lost in the clouds, we're introspective, when our even if our body is busy but our mind is free to wander, these parts of the brain click on. And then, and this could be anytime you're in the shower, you're brushing your teeth, you're waiting at the doctor's office, you know, times where we often now fill the phone use or music or podcast or any kind of other thing to tether our mind to. But when we're in this introspective space, our mind starts to clean things up. Just like when you're in REM sleep, your mind's like, okay, I'm free now to do my work. I'm gonna sort through the emotions from the day. I'm gonna start making connections and solve problems that you've been kind of stuck on. I'm gonna commit new information to memory. I might start to reflect on how my actions from the day set with my values or my morals. So we're doing a lot of work in that time. So it really helps us understand ourselves better. It really helps us feel more focused and clear-headed. It's like closing out a bunch of tabs or cleaning out a closet. Um, your brain needs to do that too. But yeah, we don't get daydreaming time anymore. And it's a big problem. It's why we're often so mentally frazzled and overstimulated and struggle to focus. It's like, oh, we're missing a really critical part of our day, which is just letting our minds wander. So I got really excited about it. And I could see how, yeah, I also need that.
Brian Torres 16:39
Yeah, just being in a way, but not like I love what you said earlier about how it gets co-opted or like how we almost self-care is optimized. Like, how do I optimize like like you're a machine? And are you doing self-care right? And it's like, what if it's just being, but not in a you have to meditate type way, you just have to sort of exist and let your mind wander.
April Snow 16:59
Exactly. Yes, just exist. It's so important, and yet we demonize it, right? Like, how many times? I mean, I remember being a kid and like, oh, get your head out of the clouds, or like focus, or you know, what do you what are you doing? When I would be kind of just day, you know, daydreaming and kind of letting my mind go. And yeah, it's actually really important. It's not being lazy, it's not being irresponsible or wasting time, it's it's something our brains really need. And all humans need it, but HSPs need even more because we're picking up so much, our minds are so busy and processing so much information. So yeah, it was like, oh yeah, this is something that we need to talk about. So I made a whole chapter about it.
Brian Torres 17:44
I know, and it's I like the like sort of reclamation of daydreaming for me. Like it's just like, oh, that feels now something that I'm entitled to, but also that it's necessary.
April Snow 17:54
Yeah, it's just like breathing or food. We need daydreaming.
Brian Torres 17:58
Yeah. Thinking
Brian Torres 18:00
about you know what you said about overstimulation, and something that I really appreciated about the book as well is that stimulation. I feel like that word is everywhere. It is on the internet. We're throwing it around for a good reason. I love that it's a part of the combo, but um but I appreciate your distinguishing between overstimulation, overwhelm, and overload. Yes. And I was wondering if you'd be open to describing that to listeners, kind of those distinctions.
April Snow 18:31
Yeah, it is a term that gets thrown out a lot. Now, I've even had clients say, like, oh, I know this is, you know, we're over talked about. Like, well, let's slow down. We're still overstimulated, let's, you know, make it a priority. But we often get those terms confused. I know I've mixed them up when really they're having there's a different cause for overstimulation versus overwhelm. And so we need different solutions. We need to take care of ourselves in different ways when we're experiencing each of those. So I wanted to one differentiate, but then have kind of a catch-all term for when both are happening at once, when you know there's too much going on for too long. So let's break it down one by one. So overstimulation is sensory, it's physical. So that might be lights, noise, clutter, maybe you know, lack of personal space if you're in a crowded room or on a city street. That's overstimulation. Your senses are taking in too much. And because we notice that sensory information at a more subtle level, we go to those places of overstimulation more quickly. But overwhelm is more mental emotional, like when your to-do list is too long, or you have a big decision on your plates, or you're processing deep feelings of grief or some other emotion, then we're feeling overwhelmed. So when that's happening, we need to look at do I need to set a boundary? Do I need to reach out for support? Versus with overstem, we're okay, I need to change my environment, right? My sensory experience. So those are two very different responses to how we need to take care of ourselves. Whereas with overload, it's like, okay, everything is happening. My nervous system is feeling really stressed and maybe even feels like under threat, even though it's not a real threat. So then, okay, now we need to go and take care of our nervous systems.
Brian Torres 20:22
Yeah. Yeah. I know in the HSV community, we used to have this like joke about the when you're so overstimulated, overwhelmed, but you're exhausted, but you can't come down. So it's like tired and wired, but we'd call it wired.
April Snow 20:34
Exactly.
Brian Torres 20:36
Yeah, but no, I think that distinction is important, right? And but then how they all can lead to the overload, which I think is maybe that, you know, you get into that shutdown, you get into the feeling burnt out.
April Snow 20:51
Exactly. Which sometimes shows up as anxiety or depression. We might think, okay, I have a mental health issue. Other times it's a nervous system issue. And so, and then yeah, then I get into ways to address that, whether, you know, so if you're stressed, your nervous system tends to go up into anxiety, anger, or down into kind of fogginess, depression, and then yeah, responding accordingly to make sure you're taking it's all about making sure you're taking care of yourself at a more nuanced level.
Brian Torres 21:20
Yeah, yeah. I think it's helpful to have those nuances explained. So you kind of know the the course. And I mean, the book is filled with so many practical solutions or tips or checklists, which I think is so helpful.
April Snow 21:34
Yeah, I wanted it to feel accessible, like because it's one thing to explain it, but okay, what then do I do? So I wanted to, okay, here's some scripts, here's some tools, you know, and obviously you're you won't do all of those things in the book, but if there's one or two areas where you're struggling, like, okay, now I have some options and a place to jump off of and figure out how to move forward in this, and I'm not feeling helpless or alone or you know, confused about what to do.
Brian Torres 22:01
Yeah, it's not just the why of it all, but the how to exactly. Exactly.
April Snow 22:07
Yeah.
Brian Torres 22:08
Yeah, I was curious. I mean, this is uh a fellow HSP nerd question, but I'm curious what it's like, you know, since we've known each other for a few years, and I when reading was excited for you because like, oh, what is it like to not only like meet some heroes in this field over time, but what is it like maybe also to become such a prominent voice in the field yourself? I mean, not just with this book, but the communities and resources you've created over the years.
April Snow 22:39
So funny because you know, we both met some of our heroes and gotten to spend some time. And it feels like a a dream, honestly. You know, it feels really surreal. Like, did that actually happen? I don't know. I've learned, definitely learned a lot. I feel very grateful and privileged to have met a lot of the prominent people in the HSP space. And well, first off, it's given me, I think, a sense of gratitude. Appreciation for the work that they've done because you see them tirelessly showing up and advocating and doing more research and giving more talks and just really taking really good care of, I guess I almost want to say the HSP reputation, but just like making sure that accurate information is getting out there because we're constantly fighting that misinformation all the time. And so it's giving me a gratitude, but also a deep understanding of why it's important to do the work that I'm doing and how to do it in a more kind of human boundaried way. I think we can hold up people as on this pedestal when really they're human beings. And I've seen how people kind of have high expectations or want a lot. And from them, it's like, no, this is how you do it in a more balanced way. Cause I have people reach out to me all the time, sending me emails or messages, and which is always really touching. But also it's a lot to take in that what I'm writing or speaking about on the podcast or however it is I show up, that that's touching people out there in the world, people I've never met. Which is it's hard to integrate that, but it does feel really meaningful to know that someone's made a change to their life based on what I've shared about my own life or you know, my work, or they're accepting their sensitivity now, or that even better, that they've realized this is the most wild to me, that they've realized they're in HSP because of something that I put out in the world. It's like, okay, wow. Because I still remember that moment when I read Dr. Larin's work for the first time and had that realization and how much it changed my life. And I'm sure you've had similar experiences of like this. It's very life-changing to have this information. And it's a good reminder that I'm on the right path. And because my whole goal really is to make sure that I'm part of the process of carrying the torch that you know, I can keep talking about this trait and keep sharing the research in relatable ways and making sure that you know people know that they're HSPs, as many as possible. So it does it. I think you mentioned earlier this full circle moment, and it's truly that, but I'm still trying to take it in. Yeah. Yeah.
Brian Torres 25:16
Yeah.
April Snow 25:17
That's a lot, Brian.
Brian Torres 25:18
Don't remember who said it, but talking about like HSPs being, you know, whether consciously or unconsciously, these emotional leaders, like they show emotional leadership by they give permission by feeling other people to feel. I think that applies here, right? Like you're writing this is like right, you're the having the podcast, having the communities you created, like opening up or giving people that same permission, which to me makes total sense.
April Snow 25:45
Yeah, thank you. It's been a long journey. I mean, we met each other, what I think we were talking about this off the podcast, but probably eight years ago or so. And I remember at the time you were doing some of your own research and you've taught and continue to champion the trade. And yeah, we all have to kind of do our part in a way.
Brian Torres 26:06
Yeah, and I remember us talking about a book that it was a possibility for you at some point. And like, oh, and it's finally here.
April Snow 26:13
It's finally here. Yeah, it's like this book. It technically took three and a half years to write, but it's so it's so much longer than that. It probably is my whole life, really.
Brian Torres 26:24
Yeah. Yeah.
Brian Torres 26:25
And really big question where can listeners find your new book?
April Snow 26:30
Yeah, so it's out today. You can find it anywhere you buy your books online, bookshop.org, Amazon, Barnes and Noble Target, or at your local indie bookseller, whatever your favorite one is. If they don't already have it, you can ask them to order it for you. You can also request it from your library if it's not already on the shelf. And then if you're not in the US or the UK, it's available in other countries as well, the English version. And it'll be available in a handful of other languages as well. There's a bunch of upcoming translations happening. So you can again search your favorite online bookseller for that, or you can find information at bigfeelingsbigjoy.com, as well as in-person events if you want to come meet me and get a book signed.
Brian Torres 27:13
Oh, great.
April Snow 27:13
Well, I'm I'll be coming where yes, we can reunite in person.
Brian Torres 27:20
Yeah. Oh my God. Well, this has been so great. I'm glad to well, one, just to be able to talk about the book with you because I loved it, but so excited for you and release day today.
April Snow 27:31
Yes, it's it's a big day. Thank you for celebrating this day with me, Brian, and for guiding me in this conversation. It felt really meaningful to talk with you about it because I know that, well, we are both HSP nerds, and we both really have devoted a lot of our work to supporting HSP.
Brian Torres 27:49
So it means a lot that share this moment with you. Honored to be asked. Great. Yeah, great.
April Snow 27:56
All right. Well, thank you so much. Thanks so much for joining me and Brian for today's conversation. I hope you're feeling inspired to make more room for joy and embrace your sensitivity in whatever way feels right for you. To dive in further, get your copy of Big Feelings Big Joy anywhere you buy your books, or head to BigFeelingsBigJoy.com. And if you'd like to connect with Brian, you can go to briantorrestherapy.com. All these links are also in the show notes. If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to the Sensitive Stories podcast so you don't miss our upcoming conversations. Reviews and ratings are also helpful and appreciated. Check out the show notes or head to sensitivestories.com to find all the resources and the transcript from today's episode. Thanks for listening.
