51: Enjoying Sex Worth Having
With Caitlin Weber, LMFT + Sex Therapist
Does sex feel uncomfortable or overstimulating? In this episode, I talk with Caitlin Weber, LMFT, CST about the barriers to enjoyable sex as a highly sensitive person and:
• How to carve out the time and mental space for sex as an HSP
• Managing the physical discomfort, boredom, and emotional overwhelm that may happen during sex
• What to do when you have a low sex drive
• How to break free from linear models of sex
Caitlin Weber is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Sex Therapist by the American Association of Sexuality Educators, Counselors and Therapists. As a cis white queer therapist, Caitlin has a private practice in Whitefish Bay, Wisconsin and online, and she helps individuals and couples meet their mental health, relational and sexual goals. Passion areas for Caitlin include helping clients navigate sexual pain and trauma, sexual orientation and gender identity discovery, perinatal mood and anxiety disorders, infertility trauma, kink, polyamory, and grief. She helps people externalize all of the damaging systems we inherit such as racism, ableism, fat phobia, patriarchy, religious trauma, capitalism, and colonialism so that they can truly thrive and live authentically while accessing pleasure.
Keep in touch with Caitlin:
• Website: http://webertherapy.com
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/caitlinwebertherapy
Resources Mentioned:
• Come as You Are by Emily Nagoski, PhD: https://bookshop.org/a/63892/9781982165314
• Find a Sex Therapist: https://www.aasect.org/referral-directory
• Wicked Sensual Care: https://wickedsensualcare.com
• Good Clean Love Lubricants: https://goodcleanlove.com/collections/personal-lubricants-collection
Thanks for listening!
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This episode is for educational purposes only and is not intended as a substitute for treatment with a mental health or medical professional. Some links are affiliate links. You are under no obligation to purchase any book, product or service. I am not responsible for the quality or satisfaction of any purchase.
Episode Transcript
Caitlin Weber: 0:31
when we demystify sex, when we take it off that pedestal and bring it into real life, into the real world, then we can expect realistic things from it, just like we expect realistic things from anything else.
April Snow: 0:52
Welcome to Sensitive Stories, the podcast for the people who live with hearts and eyes wide open. I'm your host, psychotherapist and author, april Snow. I invite you to join me as I deep dive into rich conversations with fellow highly sensitive people that will inspire you to live a more fulfilling life as an HSP without all the overwhelm. In this episode, I talk with Caitlin Weber about carving out the mental space for sex as an HSP, what to do when sex is over-simulating, boring or even painful, and how to navigate a lower sex drive.
April Snow: 1:30
Caitlin is a marriage and family therapist and certified sex therapist by ASECT, the American Association of Sexuality Educators, counselors and Therapists. As a cis white queer therapist in Wisconsin, she helps individuals and couples navigate sexual pain and trauma, sexual orientation and gender identity discovery, perinatal mood and anxiety disorders, infertility trauma, kink, polyamory and grief. Caitlin also helps people externalize all of the damaging systems we inherit, such as racism, ableism, fat phobia, patriarchy, religious trauma, capitalism and colonialism, so that they can truly thrive and live authentically while accessing pleasure. For more HSP resources and to see behind the scenes video from the podcast, join me on Instagram, tiktok or YouTube at Sensitive Strengths or sign up for my email list. Links are in the show notes and at sensitivestoriescom. And just a reminder that this episode is for educational purposes only and is not intended as a substitute for treatment with mental health or medical professional. Let's dive in, caitlin. I just want to welcome you to the podcast. I'm so happy to chat with you today.
Caitlin Weber: 3:02
Thank you so much for having me, of course.
April Snow: 3:05
I'd love to start off with looking at your HSP discovery story. If you can remember how or when you realized that you're a highly sensitive person.
Caitlin Weber: 3:14
Yeah, that's a great question. I mentioned that I'll be talking about this today, but there's sort of an overlap between introversion and HSPs, which I'm sure that you talk about quite a lot. So I figured out I was an introvert a lot farther back than I figured out I was an HSP, if you will. And then also I figured out I was an HSP before I figured out I was neurodivergent.
April Snow: 3:37
It's a process.
Caitlin Weber: 3:39
It's a process and there's so much overlap right of these sort of three phenomena or diagnoses, or you know not that HSP is a diagnosis, but so, anyway, I first found out I was introverted when I was in college, which was way too late to find that out, but very helpful when I was in college, which was way too late to find that out, but very helpful. And you know, I was talking to actually a career advisor, because I was trying to figure out if I wanted to teach or if I wanted to, what on earth I wanted to do. And I'll always remember her name was Marie Coco and she was so nice and she was like you're an introvert Cause I was really concerned about having this huge classroom of kids in front of me and being so overstimulated. If I met with her today, maybe she'd be like maybe you're neurodivergent, but back in the day, in the 2010s, when I was no, I guess this was the 2000s, oh my God, when I was learning better, then that was sort of the language.
Caitlin Weber: 4:32
So I figured out that I was very easily overstimulated. I really needed a lot of downtime to recharge and I probably really preferred having one-on-one conversations rather than a huge group. That being said, I do like teaching, but I like to have it in controlled environments where I know what to expect a little bit and I know that I can say no questions until this time. You know like yeah, I'm the same. It's to expect a little bit and I know that I can say no questions until this time.
April Snow: 4:56
You know like yeah, I'm the same. It's like having a little bit more predictability instead of the chaos of a big classroom.
Caitlin Weber: 5:04
Yes, yes, exactly. Very glad I didn't go into teaching little kids so. And then HSP I learned more about actually a few years ago my wife brought it up and she's like this is actually a thing, and I was like, oh, that also fits really well.
April Snow: 5:19
So, yeah, I had the same unfolding. I was like, oh, I'm introverted and I was really learning about that in grad school and I was like, wait, I'm highly sensitive. It's like, oh, there's another layer and then there's other layers that have unfolded too.
Caitlin Weber: 5:31
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and we have so many like I like to call them sometimes my special needs, and that's okay, like it's okay that we have special needs, that we need a little bit of tender, loving, care and just like being able to say no to things and being able to plan meticulously and I'm definitely not just like a spur of the moment gal usually. Yeah me too.
April Snow: 5:55
I need a good plan, some heads up. So you decide I don't want to be a teacher, I'm going to go down the therapist route. And then at some point you and I don't know how this overlaps you become a certified sex therapist, so I'm wondering what leads you to that work.
Caitlin Weber: 6:13
Yeah, another great question. And so I was in my own individual therapy and this was after college, so not too long after that Marie Coco conversation and I was in therapy with a fantastic, my first therapist ever. I was such a sassy kid, I was kind of regressing and being like a sassy teenager with her and I was just floundering in life. I didn't know what I wanted to do after college. You know, I was working at a cafe doing shift management, which I wanted that brain break, but anyway.
Caitlin Weber: 6:42
Then she was like sick of me floundering. She's like what do you want to do with your life? And I was like, don't think, just answer. And I was like I mean, if I could do this, I would just help people with their sex lives. But that's not a thing. And she was like, yeah, it is, that's a career. So she told me more about it and then she got me sort of on that researching, hyper fixation and all the different paths that you could do to become a sex therapist. So sex, the reason it interested me, you know, professionally, is that it's so complex, like holy crap, you know, there's so much that goes into those sex lives, culture, all the systems at play, all of our histories, families of origin, religious histories, you name it and so it's like externalizing a lot of crap really helps people have, so I love that work yeah, you know this isn't something I realized until becoming a therapist just how nuanced and layered it is and how so much feeds into I think we think about it often.
April Snow: 7:40
It's just the physical Right, but there's so much under it and I appreciate you talking about, like family of origin and just all these other pieces that you often don't think about when you think about how am I experiencing sex? So your love of that comes before becoming a therapist. Yeah, yeah.
Caitlin Weber: 8:01
Most people like because they're like oh, I'm a therapist and now I want to do sex therapy. But I was, I want to be a sex therapist. I guess I have to be a therapist first.
April Snow: 8:11
So I love that. Yeah, that's kind of similar to me. Is my love of sensitivity, that kind of co-exec, coincided with my becoming a therapist or not? It didn't come right before, but I grew as a therapist as I'm growing into the specialty and I just love that. You knew that from the start.
Caitlin Weber: 8:26
Yeah.
April Snow: 8:27
This is my passion, this is what I want to do.
Caitlin Weber: 8:29
Yeah, yeah, it really helped clarify things. I was sick of being lost in life and then I had that real direction to go.
April Snow: 8:35
So yeah, yeah.
Caitlin Weber: 8:43
It's just beautiful.
April Snow: 8:43
So, thinking about if we intersect sensitivity and sex and you know, as HSPs we barely have enough time as it is, we're more mentally, emotionally impacted by life. So how do we and we'll get into some of the deeper parts of this, but just at a base level how do we carve out time for into some of the deeper parts of this, but just at a base level? How do we carve out time for sex as an hsp when we already have limited bandwidth for everything else?
Caitlin Weber: 9:01
yeah, great question, oh my gosh, and it's complex, but basically we have to make sure that we're able to access a few specific like parts of being a human so that we can access our sexuality. So it's like being able to relax, which is easier said than done, having the. Sometimes it feels like the privilege to relax, having the time for sure to relax, having the, just the schedule, like scheduling it out, which is part of what you really helped me and a ton of people. It's like figuring out your schedule so that you can like have time to relax and just be able to be a human. In this very like internalized capitalistic culture, we're always go, go, go, go go. It's really bonkers like how bad it is.
Caitlin Weber: 9:46
And I did study abroad for a year in college and this makes me sound so like privileged and bougie. But in France it's fantastic. I just loved it so much and they are way better than we are, even though they're still a Western culture. They're way better at relaxing than we are Like. They're better at being existential and taking it slow. They'll drink this tiny little espresso on a cafe terrace for like hours, possibly still be working on that.
April Snow: 10:17
We could learn a lot from the French right.
Caitlin Weber: 10:26
We can, yes, and I came back from studying abroad and I was just like hit with this abrupt sort of like reverse culture shock where I was like I can't keep up here anymore and of course I did Like I got back into my groove. I am American and now I'm go, go, go again a lot of the time. But it was just this really stark contrast. So what was the original question? Oh yeah, how to carve out time and space for sex. Tangents are part of life, right?
April Snow: 10:48
So we love his HSPs.
Caitlin Weber: 10:50
Exactly, exactly so, carving out time and space for sex. You know, relaxation was one area, so play is another area. Like, are you able to access playfulness? Like, does your childhood trauma allow you to access playfulness? A lot of people, due to their childhood trauma, they stop learning. They like learn to stop playing too early, if you will. You're not playful as adults. Adults need to play, just like, you know, kiddos do so.
Caitlin Weber: 11:19
I find a lot of times in my therapy room people struggle with getting playful and they take life too seriously or they're taking themselves really seriously and everything feels like doom and gloom and life and death all the time. And I'm like when are you just silly? Like when do you just fart and laugh at it? Are you just goofing around enough? Our bodies are silly and they jiggle and they're predictable sometimes. So we have sex in our bodies, so are we able to play with our partners too?
Caitlin Weber: 11:51
And then the last area is oh, I wrote it down so I wouldn't get too sidetracked here Stress, play, relaxation, pleasure, pleasure is the last one, of course, doy. And Emily Nagoski is like probably. I mean, she is my absolute favorite sex expert, right? So she's a sex educator. Wrote Come as you Are wrote Come Together more recently about sex and long-term relationships and is fantastic about explaining this.
Caitlin Weber: 12:20
But pleasure is the name of the game and like we're not able to access pleasure in other areas of our lives, like food, for example, or dance, or there's so many areas that we can actually just have pure pleasure, like when you're playing with your pets or playing with your kids or playing in other areas. So, yeah, like, are you able to? Really, if you take the analogy of food, which eating disorders are very similar to sexual problems, because it's like if you're overthinking this or if you're shooting yourself, you're putting all these sheds on yourself or you have that like diet culture and you have the fat phobia that affects both your eating and your sex. You know, if you think you're too fat, if you think that you're too fat to have sex, you're too fat to eat a cheeseburger, you're not having pleasure when you're eating and you're not having pleasure when you're having sex. So, really, like I really help people learn how to have pleasure again, which is a joy to do.
April Snow: 13:15
I bet, oh, I bet. I mean just coming back into the pleasure, the playfulness, the relaxation which is really helpful to hear, because oftentimes you hear, oh, you can relax, or you can have pleasure during or post sex, but actually it's important to have that before so you can sounds like you can be more in your body and enjoy it more, your body and enjoy it more.
Caitlin Weber: 13:37
Oh, yes, yes. And the way Emily Nagoski put it was like her book has you draw a house and it's like a house that represents basically like how to access your sex room. So you have like a sex room in your house and it's like what rooms are next to it. It's usually not caretaking, it's not caring for your mother-in-law who lives with you, it's not caring for your infant, it's not caring for yourself when you're super in pain or sick, like that's usually not the role that you have to walk through to get to the sex room. When I did her workshop, I was in St Louis at the ASAC conference and so we were all doing it live with her there and I was like I had just had a baby. So I was like care, care, care, care, care. Yes, not the pathway to sex. Nope, and I think that resonates with a lot of mamas and papas. So you know.
April Snow: 14:26
Yeah, and I'm just thinking as an HSP. You know we need more kind of slower, intentional transitions. You're not going to go from caring to sex. You need a kind of a buffer or a lead in. Let me be playful, let me do something silly or something pleasurable having some good food, or connecting with my partner or even just I don't know playing outside. What a good reminder that maybe there's something we need before.
Caitlin Weber: 14:52
Maybe it's a bath.
April Snow: 14:53
Yeah, or a bath, yeah, yeah. Are there any other examples of how playfulness, pleasure, relaxation might show up before sex?
Caitlin Weber: 15:03
Yeah, I think really like having a if you work, if people have a job that they need to quit before they can not quit your job. Not saying everybody needs to quit their job, job for the day so that you can actually be present with your family and with your partner and with yourself. Oh man, are we bad at being mindful in this culture? Right, and these phones don't help. There's so much dopamine coming at us all the time from the scrolling and so much like fear and doom. Scrolling can happen as well. So are you able to like shut down after work and make a real transition into your home life? So I think if people like had a box in their house where they could put these phones, lock them up for a couple hours a night, I bet there'd be like a correlation there between having more sex too.
April Snow: 15:51
Yeah right, it kind of opens things up more. You might actually explore your environment or connect with your partner more.
Caitlin Weber: 16:00
Yeah, it's like, oh, I need this dopamine from something else.
April Snow: 16:03
Yeah, right, exactly Right, we would seek it out. That's so true. We would seek out dopamine in more physical ways versus based on technology. So that's a big struggle or a big barrier. You know, being on the phone too much, trying to maybe rush into sex without thinking about what's coming before, but what are some of the other struggles that you see people dealing with around sex? That might be a barrier.
Caitlin Weber: 16:28
Yeah, the other thing is that they're not embodied. So embodiment is huge, you know, when they're not moving their bodies in ways that either feel good or at least neutral. You know, taking a walk and if you actually think about it, like going on a walk in your neighborhood is chock full of sensory stuff which as an hsp it is sometimes very stimulating. But also for me, walking is stimulating in all the right ways. You smell the fresh air, you hear the birds this time of year they're back. Oh, I love the birds.
Caitlin Weber: 17:04
Looking outside it's still hideous because it's the midwest and it's like we won't have any color for a while, but so it's brown and gray. But it's still a good sensory experience. And you get out there and you start to have your blood pumping through your body. So physically it helps you prepare for sex as well by stretching. You know there's opening up your backs and then you don't have to be walking. You can go to the gym first and then take a shower. You might want to have sex later that night if that makes you feel good, right? Or dance class, or hiking, you name it.
April Snow: 17:39
It name all the exercises in the whole world yeah, and that's the important of being embodied just getting that blood flowing, kind of waking yourself up, because I know after I go I love going for a walk and like noticing the little details.
April Snow: 17:51
And I'm in california so it's not brown, so there's one more color to see but even even with the is you know, you're going to notice the birds, or maybe there's a little hint of green poking up through the frozen earth. But it invigorates me. I feel more alive, I feel more excited. I want more experiences after that.
Caitlin Weber: 18:11
Yes, yes, yes, I don't think that we human beings were. I know that we weren't originally designed to. If you're religious, I know that we weren't originally designed to. If you're religious religious if you're if you believe in evolution, like I do, then we evolved as this. You know, we're primates, we're apes. We're supposed to be with like a group of apes, like itching each other and picking bugs out of each other and like being there for each other and nursing each other's infants and all that stuff. So a lot of togetherness is actually kind of our default. And as an HSP primate, like early primate, I would have been like the one off in the distance, like my family, like watching everybody and I'll come pick a bug out and then go leave.
Caitlin Weber: 18:54
It's true, that kind of joining and then retreating, such a weird analogy.
April Snow: 18:58
Like it's so true that we are.
Caitlin Weber: 19:00
you know, we're primates, we need visceral experiences and togetherness too. And togetherness, we're in these isolated pods really. And men, when you talk about like, don't even get me started on men like like, yes, there's a lot of anger at the patriarchy and all that. But I also feel profoundly sad for a lot of men sometimes because they're socialized not to connect as much as we AFAB people, women are, and it's like they literally die of loneliness sometimes because not connecting enough. So I could do a whole nother episode on like men and how sometimes they over focus on sex. Not always, that's a huge generalization, but some women over focus on sex, you know. But like, oftentimes men over focus on sex because it's the only way that they know how to seek out vulnerable connection. It's the way that they're socialized to, rather than crying with their partner telling them how sad they are, telling them how, talking about their fears, talking about their shame, stuff like that.
April Snow: 20:04
Yeah, there's just so much. I mean, that's what's acceptable, right? So there's so much emphasis on sexual connection versus emotional connection, which, as you're saying, that can deepen the sexual experience and it can create a lot more intimacy and opportunities there and it can create a lot more intimacy and opportunities there.
Caitlin Weber: 20:23
Yeah, and I don't have personal experience with male partners. Well, I don't mean to assume that about you, but I mean no I don't think so. Yeah, we're just judging men from I know, from afar I'm like I can, I'm speaking conceptually, yeah yeah, exactly, yeah, I've definitely had experiences with male partners, so that's helped me yeah, yeah, I imagine that it helps you give that perspective.
April Snow: 20:49
So, just speaking about the sexual experience, you know for I hear from a lot of the hsps that I work with that sex can be over stimulating, it's can be too much, whether that's physically, because there's a lot of you know it's very sensory, or emotionally, like the emotions just really flood in during or after sex. How do we work with that?
Caitlin Weber: 21:12
Yeah, yeah, that's a really great question. It really it depends. So if you take the example of somebody with a tendency to be overstimulated, you know, during sex they might avoid it for that. For that reason, I talked with a lot of people who actually have like, truly have OCD. There's a lot of or autistic people as well.
Caitlin Weber: 21:34
Autistic folks sometimes are very hypersensitive to certain textures, sounds folks sometimes are very hypersensitive to certain textures, sounds, pressures, all those different feelings, emotions, like you said as well, sometimes people need to be really specific about the sensory input that they're going to experience during sex. So you want to make sure that your sex area, whether it's your bedroom or whatnot, is set up for you to have a good time. So you don't want it to be freezing in there, you don't want it to be too hot in there. Maybe make sure that you like the texture of your bedsheets, make sure that you have lube, lube, All pro lube. You know, have lube but have good lubes and not all lubes are equal. I'm not a big fan of of ky jelly. I won't ever be a endorser of their, sorry do you have a favorite brand?
Caitlin Weber: 22:23
just as an aside, yeah I really like good, clean, love and I also I someday I should get paid by them or something. But and then I also like wicked I think is another brand.
Caitlin Weber: 22:35
So those are really nice. Lubes have come a long way. Don't even get me on a tangent about lubes. They've come a long way. There's some great lubes out there now. So, yeah, people are going to want to make sure that the textures that they have available to them are things that they like. If your lube is tacky and if it dries out too fast, that's going to put you off. If your partner is touching you in ways that you're actually not into and you're not communicating that to them, that's going to put you off. Right, if you're not being touched or touching yourself in a way that actually feels good, that's going to put you off. Like, a lot of people have partnered sex very differently than they masturbate. So, like incorporating how you masturbate into your partnered sex world. Sex life is really important. You know, if you always certain way, how are you going to get off when you're, unless you grab that vibe, right, right, so, having your vibes handy, having them charged, right, that's a good point.
Caitlin Weber: 23:38
Yeah, have, yeah, yeah and I'm trying to think of other sensory things that will help. Yeah, basically, just like when you improve the quality of your sex, the frequency might increase. It might also come not like a little bit, I won't say naturally, but you might be a lot more willing to have sex if it's sex worth having.
April Snow: 24:02
Yes, this makes a lot of sense for me as an HSP and there's a lot of things we can apply to like sleep setup, like make sure the room you're in or the area you're in is sensory friendly, because otherwise that's taking a lot of your energy that you could then use to communicate, to think about what's you know you're enjoying, all the other pieces, and also, the more you have quality sex, then your brain has that association Like ooh. This is positive. I want more of this versus ooh. Last time I was very uncomfortable or overstimulated and I want to avoid that at all costs. So that's so powerful for an HSP.
Caitlin Weber: 24:37
Oh, totally. And taking out the linear model completely, we talk a lot of sex therapists about this. The linear model of sex is kind of what they teach you about straight people's sex and in movies and stuff, where it's like you know, sex means penis, vaginal intercourse. It always means that. It always means that you're going to have an orgasm. It always means that you're going to have. That's a lot of pressure on everybody. So I always say it always means that you're going to have. That's a lot of pressure on everybody. So I always say take the pressure off right. It's like nobody has to have an erection to have sex. Nobody has to have an orgasm to have had sex. Nobody has to have penetration to have had sex. So I don't have, you know, whiteboard here. But whenever I have a whiteboard and we do the linear model and I cross it out and I say never have sex like this again and then we do a circle it's called the circular model of sex by Michelle, I think.
April Snow: 25:27
Besson. I like to call it the lazy Susan of fun and pleasure. I've rebranded it. Oh lazy.
Caitlin Weber: 25:29
Susan of fun and pleasure. Love it If you like. Spin a lazy Susan, you can get off of it what you want, right? So if you sit down to dinner and you want the vegetable dish and the starch but you don't want the meat, you've still eaten dinner with your family.
Caitlin Weber: 25:43
So similarly with sex, you know you can take off of this lazy Susan of fun and pleasure what you want. That time, right. Maybe most of the time you like the meat but you don't feel like it tonight, okay, don't, don't have it. So. And then you can have sex on that circular model for five minutes. You can have sex in that circular model for two hours because circles are infinite. So if you're ever at any point saying, you know I'm done, this isn't working for me and I want to go have a ham and cheese sandwich, like, go do it, there's no harm, no foul. So I think a lot of people just inflate their expectations of sex and their definitions of sex and they think it's on this pedestal and you got to get there, otherwise you failed. It's a performance and all that is total garbage. It's not about pleasure, it's not about play.
April Snow: 26:30
Certainly not you want it to be. It can go in whatever order you want it to. You can have whatever outcome you want it to. You can do it as long or as little as you want to. You don't have to fit that mold, which is what we're trying to always learn as sensitive or neurodivergent people. We can break out of the mold, yes exactly.
Caitlin Weber: 26:52
I find that that linear versus circular model is the number one most effective intervention to help my clients have great sex, Like it always helps.
April Snow: 27:02
Right, because I think of you know, as sensitive people. We're very conscientious, we're very perfectionistic. We think, you know, we should only do things a certain way. And what models do we have? We have movies, right, or you know these, which are impossible. Ideals, like no let's break that down. Yes.
Caitlin Weber: 27:19
Yes, yeah.
April Snow: 27:20
I love that Because that's a big barrier.
Caitlin Weber: 27:23
Exactly, yeah, exactly. And what representations to queer people have of sex in films is terrible, if it's there at all. You know Exactly. And so we oftentimes kind of model our sex lives off of straight people as well, and it's like wait, why are we doing this Exactly?
April Snow: 27:42
Right, because it's so limiting. Being queer. There's lots of options for sex, which is exciting and fun, but if you're putting yourself in that box whether it be a neurotypical box or a heterosexual box you lose so many options. I think that's what you're doing for me today. Caitlin is just really expanding the idea of what sex can be, and not just the sex itself, but what happens around.
Caitlin Weber: 28:09
Good good. That's lovely. Whenever I see a straight couple too, I say to them or not always, but when the vibe is great, pun intended. I say to them I'm going to help you have sex more like lesbians. I say to them I'm going to help you have sex more like lesbians. They actually have studied that lesbian sex is more fulfilling. Lesbians have better sex.
April Snow: 28:32
Yeah, it's true, there's research proved.
Caitlin Weber: 28:35
Yeah, we're not so linear in our thinking and we don't focus on this one sexual organ, the penis. What's the penis doing?
April Snow: 28:44
Right, right, it's more expansive.
Caitlin Weber: 28:47
Oh yes.
April Snow: 28:47
And get more creative.
Caitlin Weber: 28:49
Yes, yes, I always say the straights are not okay.
April Snow: 28:53
They're not, it's true. I often feel sorry for them.
Caitlin Weber: 28:57
Oh I know, Sorry straight people, sorry straight people.
April Snow: 29:03
So that brings me to my next question, which is okay. We're talking about how sex can be expansive and playful, and fun and connected. But what if it's boring or you feel disconnected from your partner? It can really be hard to sit with us in HSP, because we don't like boring and we don't like shallow or we don't like disconnected. So what do we do if sex is feeling that way?
Caitlin Weber: 29:27
Yeah, really great questions.
Caitlin Weber: 29:28
I'll add pain to that list too Pain thank you yes, yeah, what if sex is painful and not in a fun kinky way where you're injuring the pain? Right? That's like wanted, that's consented pain, but this is unwanted pain. So if you're having pain with your pelvic floor, vaginal pain, pain with intercourse, pain on your vulva, all of that, then we'll talk a little bit about that and then we'll talk about sex is boring or disconnecting. So I'll start with. I'll start with boring or disconnected, because it's like simpler, if you don't have pain, if it's boring or disconnected, I would say that you're not having sex worth having.
Caitlin Weber: 30:06
If it's boring Probably means you're in a rut. Might mean that you're doing it in a linear fashion, that you expect the same thing every time. You might be feeling like it's this and then that, and then we're going to do this and then we orgasm and then we're done. Well, it gets old. Like you know, I talk to people who have been married for 20 plus years and they've been doing something the same exact way that entire time. Of course they're bored with it. So that's where that circular model can help, because it's like on that circle there's erotica that you can incorporate. You know, read your partner a passage from your favorite romance novel or erotica literature and, like you know, have them maybe touch themselves during it. Right, have some mutual masturbation during sex.
Caitlin Weber: 30:49
People don't masturbate during sex. It's such a problem. You gotta masturbate during sex, right, like sometimes, because you're the only one with that direct connection from your brain, which is your most sexual organ, to your hand, to your genitals, and no one else has that moment to moment. You know, millimeter by millimeter, like feedback, instantaneously, and communicate to your partner. And you should communicate to your partner like, ooh, a little up, a little down, a little left, a little right, a little harder, a little softer, grab this vibe. I need more lube. Yes, that's all great to communicate, but also show them. Show them what you do, show them how you touch yourself. Yeah, so, anyway, that's, if sex is boring or disconnecting, it's maybe what you're doing, how you're doing it. It's not sex worth having.
April Snow: 31:35
It's not you necessarily, I think. A lot of times people think I'm the problem. Yeah, but it could be something's not working and you can maybe expand what you're doing, include more.
Caitlin Weber: 31:46
Yeah, I love that People are broken Everybody, not everybody. But a lot of people feel broken. Yeah, people are not broken. You know, if people truly are like asexual and truly like never want to have sex again in their lives, that's valid, yeah, and still not broken, not broken, not broken. But if you figure out that you want to have sex, that's worth having, cool right, always worth seeing a sex therapist.
Caitlin Weber: 32:11
If you're having sex that isn't feeling worth having, and then, with pain, I really encourage people to see you know kind of the trifecta which is the doctor, the physical therapist and the mental health therapist. I know it's a lot and you can start with whichever, whichever one you want, but you know the doctor will rule out skin conditions or infections or other gynecological or urology conditions right, urological, I don't know if that's how you say that Conditions just to make sure that everything's fine Physically. They can also check your hormones and make sure that your cardiovascular health is in check and all that. And then, once you have the go ahead, you know from the doc then which, by the way, like if you are avoiding going to the gynecologist and I see this all the time because some people have a lot of pain with the speculum. They have a lot of trauma in medical settings like that. Then see the sex therapist first. Okay, you would switch that order and then yep, and then we will help you with that, like how to advocate for yourself, how to say I am not ready for that, or I want the plastic speculum or I want you need to go slower. And most gy and most psychologists are good, but some people have complex trauma histories, complex histories with rape or just pain histories.
Caitlin Weber: 33:30
So then the pelvic floor physical therapist is another huge part of pain healing, for sexual pain. A lot of people don't even know you have a pelvic floor, but it's the sling of muscles that holds in your organs. Otherwise we would just have things like falling out of muscles that holds in your organs. Otherwise we would just have things like falling out of our butts and our vaginas. You need the sling of muscles that are sort of holding in your organs, but sometimes we have some dysfunction in those muscles. They get too tight, oftentimes certain areas, yes, they can get weak as well. So a pelvic floor physical therapist will help you figure out what's too tight and what needs some myofascial release and what needs some strengthening and how to do it. Some people don't need any strengthening, especially with sexual pain.
April Snow: 34:15
Okay, that's good to know. I didn't even realize that. You know I often will send people to the doctor or to a sex therapist, but having that third option the physical therapist makes a lot of sense. You're really teaching me a lot today, and I didn't even know that you could get a plastic speculum.
Caitlin Weber: 34:34
Yeah, I know that it's this like medieval, like metal speculum they bring it with yes, it's so medieval.
April Snow: 34:43
It's crazy to me that they use that you know, I know, but even just having a different material it's like oh softens it yeah, yeah, they're smaller.
Caitlin Weber: 34:52
What's that? One size fits all.
April Snow: 34:54
They're smaller speculums right, okay, this is good to know. So there are ways to find relief. If you're uncomfortable or bored or disconnected, there are things to do. You don't have to feel stuck there right, right.
Caitlin Weber: 35:10
Look at what you're doing and see if you want to incorporate something different, something new there's porn out there that's made by queer people for queer people, by women for women.
Caitlin Weber: 35:20
Not all porn is created equal. You know, I hate mainstream porn, just like your next person, because some of it's very like ableist, racist, misogynist punishing of women. A lot of mainstream porn is really bad and it's also like these penises that are this big so they take the analogies of human genitalia and then they're all on Viagra and they're all being fluffed in between takes so they look hard the whole time. So I have these young men coming in going. You know why am I not performing like a porn star? I'm like well, you're not shooting a porn film.
April Snow: 35:52
Right, exactly, it's all altered, yeah exactly yes. So yeah, we have to have more realistic expectations. So you talked about, you know some folks may be asexual, but what if you are just experiencing a low sex drive? You're not asexual, but you notice your sex drive is lower. How can we navigate that? And I think you've talked about how sensitive people often fall in this category.
Caitlin Weber: 36:21
Yes, yes, yes. So I'm glad you asked that because I want to normalize first and foremost that every dyadic relationship, so every couple, has a higher desire partner for sex and a lower desire partner. So that's normal, that's typical, it's normal. So, again, not broken, and that's the case for, you know, doing dishes as well or going out to eat, like there's a higher desire partner for everything and lower desire partner for everything. Like I'm definitely the lower desire partner for frequency of cleaning in my marriage, like sorry, boo, she's accepted me for who loves me. So just figuring out which things you desire more often, which things you desire less often.
Caitlin Weber: 37:03
As a couple, you probably do lots of things together, not just sex. You probably go to see family together, you probably go to movies together, maybe, or watch them, at least you know. So there's all kinds of areas and when we demystify sex, when we take it off that pedestal and bring it into real life, into the real world, then we can expect realistic things from it, just like we expect realistic things from anything else. So back to the point, if you are the lower desire partner for sex, oftentimes it's those things that I mentioned early on, like making sure that you're not stressed to the max, like, let's say you are in a straight relationship, let's say you're the. If it's a cishet relationship, let's say you're the. If it's a cishet relationship, let's say you're the wife, the woman. Make sure that your partner is carrying his weight. Make sure that he's doing as much of the housework as you're doing. If he's home, just as much as you are. And even if he's not, like if you're a stay at home mom, you know your job never ends. So oftentimes people are just completely exhausted and they have zero capacity left for anything pleasurable at the end of the night, aside from being comatose, like you know. So that's one thing and the other thing is like making sure that other.
Caitlin Weber: 38:16
It's often easier to like lift up on the brakes than it is to apply more gas. Meaning, what are your brakes? This is the dual control model of sex. What are your sexual brakes? What's the dual control model of sex? What are your sexual breaks? What's hitting them? Is it fear of pregnancy? Is it fear of STIs? Is it pain? Is it your sexual trauma triggers and you need to see a sex therapist? Is it that it's not sex worth having? What's hitting your breaks? So easing up on those breaks will allow you to be willing to have sex and, by the way, willingness is much more important than libido. So that's the receptive model of desire where I didn't know I was going to go over, like every concept of sex therapy.
April Snow: 38:56
Great, you're hitting all the bases.
Caitlin Weber: 38:59
The receptive model of desire is like first you're're willing and then you go and touch yourself and then you are like into it, and then you're aroused and then you feel desire. So that's just as normal as it is to feel spontaneously like horny or wanting to have sex. In fact, it's much more common for kids, teenagers, to feel spontaneously like desiring sex than it is for, you know, 30s, 40s, 50s people who are stressed out and exhausted.
April Snow: 39:29
So Okay, so don't expect it just to turn right on. There's a lead up, as with you were talking about the rooms, like build up to it.
Caitlin Weber: 39:37
Yeah, yeah. And then also you can plan ahead. There's the. My favorite thing is the pencil it in intervention. So that's not a write it in blood, and you know, write it in ink. There's the my favorite thing is the pencil it in intervention. So that's not a write it in blood, and you know, write it in ink, it's write it in pencil. This is a metaphor, right? Or you can write it in pencil on your calendar if you have a physical calendar. But it's like you know, pencil it into your calendar. It's there. You're planning on having sex on Thursday night because it's Wednesday and tomorrow night looks free. But if tomorrow night rolls around and you have a migraine, like please don't force yourself.
April Snow: 40:09
Yeah, it can be flexible.
Caitlin Weber: 40:11
Yeah, be flexible. It's just like signing up for a dance class. You're not going to go if you are having the worst day of your life, right? I hope not. I hope that you would cry with your partner then. Yeah right, you're not going to go. If you're at each other's throats and you know not getting along in any dimension, then I hope you go to couples therapy, right?
Caitlin Weber: 40:32
Yes, yeah it's like planning ahead softly for a future sexual encounter, but not feeling like you have to do it when it rolls around. Have to do it when it rolls around and if you find that you plan ahead and it's not happening, it's not happening, it's not happening, then it might be that there's too much on your brakes or it might be that it's not sex worth having.
April Snow: 40:52
That's a good way to kind of just check yourself, like are there barriers or is something else going on, and I appreciate that putting it on the counter, because in some ways it's like, oh, is that cliche? But it's like, no, you're prioritizing it.
Caitlin Weber: 41:07
Yes, yes yes, yeah, and it's not the like. I don't want your partner to think the higher desire partner. They shouldn't and they won't expect it to absolutely happen. That's just not. That's not a consent, that's the lack of consent, right? Yes, so if your partner feels entitled to sex with you, that's the patriarchy. It's usually men, you know. I mean like I've seen women feel entitled to sex with their partner. But it's like just because you are with somebody, it doesn't mean you own them. It doesn't mean that's what you need, absolutely.
Caitlin Weber: 41:37
You are not entitled to have sex. It's a joint decision.
April Snow: 41:41
Joint decision yes, okay. So looking at breaks, looking at bringing in more playfulness, relaxation, pleasure and reminding yourself that you're not broken, and if there is something getting in the way, reach out for support. Yes, yeah, yeah, caitlin, you've already shared so much, but just before we go, I'd love to hear if there's any final message that you want to share with HSPs, or what it'd be.
Caitlin Weber: 42:11
Oh man, I think my final message would be I love all my fellow HSPs. I think that the world needs us. The world needs people who are overwhelmed by overwhelming things to like sit down and think about them. I think we sometimes change the world and we sometimes feel too much of the weight of the world on our shoulders. So, you know, if you have sex worth having, that could be a vacation from real life for a little while. It can be a place where you just enjoy, right. So if you take all the cultural crap and the trauma and all that, if you're able to externalize a lot of that stuff from you through some good work, then hopefully your sex life will improve and it can be a little break from all of the hard work that we do as HSPs.
April Snow: 42:57
Yeah, I love that. It's like sex is self-care. Yes, yeah, it really is. Well, I just really appreciate everything that you shared today and if there's folks that want to reach out for you, I'll share your website, your social media and the show notes. You offer individual couples therapy in Wisconsin, or folks can reach out to you from anywhere if they are interested in coaching. I'm also curious I think you have some workshops coming up If you could share a little bit about that as well.
Caitlin Weber: 43:24
Yeah, yeah, in May I'm teaching therapists how to talk to their clients about sex and actually how to help with desire, discrepancy for sex, specifically so same as the topics today, and we'll be talking about embodiment, mindfulness, basically all this stuff just more in depth. So if you're a therapist, feel free to come. And then workshops for other folks. I don't have organized quite yet, but there's a lot of ideas percolating and I really want to help parents learn how to talk to their kids about sex. So I'm going to set up one of those workshops someday.
April Snow: 43:58
Great, yeah, it sounds like you have a lot of resources available and more in the works, which is really exciting. Yeah, it sounds like you have a lot of resources available and more in the works, which is really exciting, wonderful Well, caitlin, thank you so much for today.
Caitlin Weber: 44:08
Thank you so much for having me Really really.
April Snow: 44:10
It was fun.
Caitlin Weber: 44:12
It was really fun.
April Snow: 44:19
Thanks so much for joining me and Caitlin for today's conversation. What I hope you remember from today is that sex can be enjoyable, fun and deeply connected, maybe even a form of self-care, and if it's not, remember that you're not broken, you just may need a little support To work with Caitlin for therapy or coaching. You can visit WeberTherapycom that's W-E-B-E-R Therapcom or find more resources in the show notes. If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to the Sensitive Stories podcast so you don't miss our upcoming conversations. Reviews and ratings are also helpful and appreciated For behind-the-scenes content and more HSB resources. You can sign up for my email list or follow Sensitive Strengths on Instagram, tiktok and YouTube. Check out the show notes or sensitivestoriescom for all the resources from today's episode. Thanks for listening.
