53: Unlearning Perfectionism + Embracing Softness
With Noni Vaughn-Pollard, NDTR, MHC-LP
Are you holding up everyone else at your own expense? In this episode, I talk with Noni Vaughn-Pollard, NDTR, MHC-LP about unlearning perfectionism and:
• Finding those safe spaces to receive support
• The unique challenges of sensitive black girls
• Giving yourself permission to be soft and sensitive when you need to
• The impact of superwoman syndrome
• Navigating internal and external messages that block your intuition and true calling
Noni is a mental health counselor and nutritionist in New York who focuses on empowering Black adolescent girls by boosting their self-esteem. She also supports sensitive adolescents & young adults of color dealing with anxiety, perfectionism, and relationship challenges.
Keep in touch with Noni:
• Website: https://www.rootsarttherapy.nyc/noni
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/afroandappetite
• Email: noni@rootsarttherapy.nyc
Resources Mentioned:
• Nap Ministry: https://thenapministry.wordpress.com
Thanks for listening!
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Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sensitivestrengths
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This episode is for educational purposes only and is not intended as a substitute for treatment with a mental health or medical professional. Some links are affiliate links. You are under no obligation to purchase any book, product or service. I am not responsible for the quality or satisfaction of any purchase.
Episode Transcript
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 0:17
Within the Black community there's this guilt that if I am doing well, I'm leaving somebody behind, that if I'm focusing on myself, I'm neglecting my family and friends. To keep yourself stuck because other people are stuck, it doesn't get you to where you want to be. So that's always this interesting balance of how do I show up for other people but I still show up for myself at the same time.
April Snow: 0:54
Welcome to Sensitive Stories, the podcast for the people who live with hearts and eyes wide open. I'm your host for the people who live with hearts and eyes wide open. I'm your host, psychotherapist and author April Snow. I invite you to join me as I deep dive into rich conversations with fellow highly sensitive people that will inspire you to live a more fulfilling life as an HSP without all the overwhelm. In this episode, I talk with Noni Von Pollard about setting down the pressure to be perfect at caring for everyone else, finding those safe spaces to receive support and recognizing your gifts.
April Snow: 1:32
When you're a sensitive black girl focuses on empowering Black adolescent girls by boosting their self-esteem. She also supports sensitive adolescents and young adults of color dealing with anxiety, perfectionism and relationship challenges. For more HSP resources and to see behind-the-scenes video from the podcast, join me on Instagram, tiktok or YouTube at Sensitive Strengths or sign up for my email list. Links are in the show notes and at sensitivestoriescom. And just a reminder that this episode is for educational purposes only and is not intended as a substitute for treatment with a mental health or medical professional. Let's dive in Well, nody. Welcome back to the podcast. I'm so excited to have you here again.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 2:39
Yeah, thanks so much for inviting me back. I'm really happy that we get to chat again and maybe have a little different of a conversation this time.
April Snow: 2:46
Me too. Yeah, I'm excited to dive into the work that you're doing now, and so last time we talked about we started off with your HSP discovery story, which is what we usually start with. But I want to dive a little bit deeper this time and look at a different part of your experience and that connects to the work that you're doing now. So I'm curious if you're open to sharing your experience growing up as a sensitive Black teen what that was like for you.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 3:08
Yeah, I was just at my old high school today, so I definitely have a lot of memories that have flooded back.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 3:14
I remember feeling very misunderstood.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 3:17
I felt like what was interesting was that I was such an emotional person and sensory things so like prevalent in my mind, like the weather or, you know, the day of the week or the holiday season, like everything was just super big for me and I would get a lot of comments from people, even sometimes within, like my inner circle that I needed to just let it go.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 3:41
I shouldn't linger on things, I was being too sensitive, I was personalizing things a lot, so I felt like this was an issue for me. I didn't know how to correct it at the time or if I needed to, but I think I was very worried that my sensitivity was going to get in the way of future success as I became an adult and I tried really hard to not show that side of myself, but it just always felt like I was putting on like a costume that didn't feel comfortable and, yeah, it was really hard. I just felt like there was always something wrong that I needed to like let go of, but I just didn't know how to do that and nobody told me how to do it.
April Snow: 4:22
Right, you're just getting told just to get over it, let it go. That's not really helpful. Like, what do you do with that? You know you can't change how your nervous system is responding to your environment, how you're feeling, and it makes sense that well, okay, I'm doomed to feel this way forever, can't change it.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 4:41
Yeah, yeah. I just thought like, oh my gosh, college and getting a job and future relationships as an adult, like how am I going to do this? Because I'm such a sensitive person and I was just told that was a weakness or that was going to get in the way of me being able to progress as a person. So I was just very worried about my future, and I think other people were worried too. Like well, if she can't let things go, or if she's always holding onto her emotions, how is she going to be able to move forward in life? So I internalized that a lot growing up as a teen of like there's something wrong with me and I need to figure this out, otherwise there's going to be consequences later on.
April Snow: 5:20
Right, you think this is just going to persist and life is going to get harder because you hear how hard college is and how hard it is to find a job and be an adult. It's like, well, how am I supposed to do all of that when I feel this way and other people are implying, or maybe being explicit, that, oh, this is a problem. You know, you can't be this sensitive and be in the world. That's pretty terrifying right, thinking like, oh, I'm going to, just I'm going to struggle.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 5:52
Yeah, absolutely yeah. When you just said that. Yeah, that's what it felt like, like it's going to be a struggle. It's going to be really hard for me to obtain the goals that I want for myself because of who I am.
April Snow: 6:04
Yeah, I imagine that's what leads you then. I'm curious to hear how you got through that. But I think we'll get into that through our conversation. But I imagine that's a big reason why you decided to work with teen girls yourself. You understand where you're coming from. I'm curious to hear more about that. What led you to this work?
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 6:23
understand where you're coming from. I'm curious to hear more about that. What led you to this work? Yeah, it kind of happened by accident. In a weird way.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 6:30
I was doing a lot of like my internships with teenagers. I was getting paired with a lot of teen girls of color, especially a lot of black teens, and I didn't have any experience before like learning how to do psychotherapy and counseling with teenagers, but I just remember they would open up so fast to me and I think, because they were talking to someone that looked similar to them, had a similar identity and similar experiences as a sensitive person, that they felt it was a safe enough space and environment to be more vulnerable. And the more I was talking to them, I realized like wow, a lot of these things I say to these girls I didn't hear growing up. Like that was just such a surreal experience of like oh, this is what I wish.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 7:15
I heard when I was a teen. I wish someone was more patient with me and I found myself being very patient with these girls and the more I was patient, the more I could see it would just inspire them to start doing certain things because they knew like okay, like someone believes in me, I can do this stuff. And that was like a real turning point where I was like, oh, I really wish I had me when I was younger to say, yeah, I believe in you, you can do it, you can handle it. That positive messaging it means a lot to the girls I work with and I know it definitely would have meant a lot to me when I was younger.
April Snow: 7:51
Yeah, it's like you're speaking to your younger self through them. Yeah, how powerful that is to, instead of someone joining in your despair to say, no, there's another way. Right, it could actually be okay. I mean that encouragement goes a long way first to be seen, but then to be encouraged. I'm curious, you know, as you're giving them those positive messages, what starts to shift. Is there more hope? Is there more possibility? Do they feel you know more worthy? I'm just curious what happens when you hear something positive versus something negative?
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 8:29
It feels like there's, from what I'm seeing with the girls I work with, there's more hope of, oh, it's not going to be a struggle, or oh wait, like I've already done a lot of amazing things. That's something I've noticed too, and I focus on perfectionism and anxiety with black teen girls and a lot of the times they come to me they're like I haven't accomplished anything great, I haven't really struggled in my life. And I have to remind them, like you have been through things, you have accomplished things, but maybe in your mind, because it happened a little differently for you, you don't think it's worthy of any kind of recognition or praise. And it's just interesting when they start to reflect on, oh, like I have been able to do things for myself or I know who I am as a person. I just never told anyone.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 9:18
It seems like it gives a lot of them hope of like I know who I am, I know what I want and as long as I have that encouragement to pursue it, I seems like it gives a lot of them hope of like I know who I am, I know what I want and as long as I have that encouragement to pursue it, I can do it and that's really beautiful to me to see is just a girl who starts to really believe in her own power of like. Oh wait, I'm not like an extrovert or I'm not like, you know, other kids in my school, but I have a lot I can do and there's a lot I can offer other people the power of the reframe.
April Snow: 9:47
I mean because nothing's changing right. You're still sensitive, you're still potentially introverted, you're still getting overwhelmed sometimes or having those big feelings. But it's just looking at it through a different lens, saying like, oh, actually I am capable. Yeah, there are things here I am capable. Yeah, there are things here I can celebrate about myself and it's not all bad. I mean, that is such a powerful realization to have.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 10:14
Yeah, yeah, it's very powerful and I think it's interesting because I also work with parents, with Black parents. It's interesting because I also work with parents, with black parents, and I can tell there's a lot of projection happening of like I know what it's like to be a young black girl and growing up it's very challenging. People don't believe in you, so you have to have this tough skin because otherwise, if you don't have it, you can't move forward, and that creates what it seems like a lot of perfectionism within the family, of like we need to show up in a certain way to be successful, and then the kids feel guilty of like well, I'm not like that.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 10:48
And I know what that's like too, that I'm not this tough skin person. So getting guidance around how can you actually maneuver through life without having this armor on is just a lot of unlearning. So what you said about the reframing makes so much sense. It's a lot of reframing of like. What does success mean? When you're a highly sensitive person, that can be different for you.
April Snow: 11:12
Yeah, yeah, Unlearning, is it? You know just kind of pulling away those messages. And the last time we talked, you talked about you know this permission you give yourself to live a softer life, and it makes sense that that you get stuck in perfectionism. You know what other choices do you have, or do you think that you have, and that's very real right. You have to be tough. I think you had shared before that you can find those pockets of softness.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 11:40
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The pockets of softness, I think is what I definitely feel as a teenager kind of protected me a lot that I knew that I was soft, like I love listening to, like movie soundtracks, I love children's shows, I just like soft, fun, playful things, and I think that actually protected me from certain things that teens go through. I didn't always feel this need to prove something to other people. It was like, well, I like this and this makes me feel safe, so I'm going to, I'm going to stick with this. So that was my thing. But then sometimes people were like, well, you're not really like a teenager, because teenagers are supposed to want to take a lot of risk and do some weird stuff. And I was just like that just doesn't feel like me, I can't, I can't do it.
April Snow: 12:31
Yeah, doesn't feel like me, I can't. I can't do it. Yeah, you just let yourself be who you are, your own version of a teenager. But you're right, there's that pressure because the teenagers are usually pretty chaotic and you're taking risks and you're pushing limits. But there's some way that you realize, oh, I can do this my own way. How did you get get there? Was it your parents or just something in yourself that you were able to give yourself that permission?
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 12:56
I think part of it was from my parents. My parents are in the film and television world and so I grew up with art like we always went to art museums, we always went to the movies. I love drawing and painting and I love making my own movies, like on my computer when I was a kid, and I like making my own songs. I think being around a creative family made it normal to want to engage with the arts or things that were just more like somatic things I could feel in my body and so that was great.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 13:27
It was always great being around parents who loved art, because I know kids whose parents are more scientific or into financial work and I'm like I have no idea Seems like a different world. Everything's about facts, but yeah, I think my parents were the ones that really supported me in art. But then also I would just like maybe I would just see like a character in a movie like another teenager was like writing in a journal or they would do something with their friends or like some kind of like role playing and stuff and I would take inspiration from that. I'm like, oh, I want to try that for myself and see how that feels. So yeah, I was always super observant. I was always watching my environment and anything that I thought was interesting I tried it for myself. So I would find little pockets of things that I liked.
April Snow: 14:15
I love that, yeah, on your Instagram, I love that you share different characters that you relate to as a sensitive person. It's like, yes, I love that, because those are sometimes the only way that you might see yourself or part of your temperament If you don't come from a family who's a little more permission giving, who's more soft or creative. Yeah, there's those ways to find it.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 14:38
Yeah, yeah. Actually, when you were just saying about the characters, my mom introduced me to this Japanese filmmaker named Hayao Miyazaki and he always had these girls that were just really sensitive. They're very emotional, but they were also very ambitious. They would have their own businesses or they were very protective of their family, like they could get a lot done even when they felt so much emotionally. I would see these characters and I was like that feels like me, like I have all these goals, I have all these dreams and I'm very emotional because I'm so passionate about things. So I felt like they understood, even though they weren't real people, but there was something that resonated for me about seeing them in those films. Like that feels like me, like I can identify with that.
April Snow: 15:25
Yeah, it's like, here's someone that's embodying both sensitivity and passion and ambition at the same time, and I love that reframe that maybe it's not well, you're emotional but also you're passionate, right. That's such a positive spin on it, which is true as sensitive people. It's like, oh, I mean, how beautiful of your mom to pass that along to you.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 15:46
Yeah, yeah, I don't know how she heard about this Japanese director, but I mean she loves films from other countries, so it was just it felt like such a gift that she was like, hey, there's this world of characters that are not, like you know, stereotypical, like Disney princesses or other things in western culture that I would see, and it was just like it just blew my mind and I was so emotional watching these movies oh, thank you, you felt.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 16:11
You felt seen. Yeah, yeah, I felt really seen. It was just like I would always cry at the end of every, every film he made, because it just spoke to me so much.
April Snow: 16:22
It's so powerful to see what's possible for a sensitive person and just to be more dynamic. Especially you're getting this external pressure is to put yourself in this little box. You know, be tough, be strong. Whatever it is, it's like, no, I can be gooey on the inside yeah, yeah it is.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 16:44
It's pretty amazing because, yeah, I think that's not. I don't know if I guess in western culture we don't see women and girls in that way, particularly like Black women and girls. It's like very like masculine characters that I would see on TV and I was like that's not me. I don't identify with someone who's very aggressive and they would always be portrayed as like violent or just not empathic and I was like that's not me at all. I don't identify with that.
April Snow: 17:12
Right, it's so limiting and I would say probably all the Black HSPs I've talked to feel stuck in that box of oh I can only be this one way. I can only be strong with that tough skin. It's like no, there's more to me than that.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 17:27
Yeah, definitely that resonates for me. It makes a lot, a lot of sense, yeah, exactly what you're saying.
April Snow: 17:32
Like, no, I'm strong and I'm ambitious, but I'm also soft and emotional and complex. How reductive that is to have that be the only example. So you had to kind of look outside of you know what's available here. Okay, what other characters can I resonate with and that actually speaks to me more? I mean, would be great if that. Well, I'm not sure if this is true, but I would imagine I would love to see that with someone that looks like me but, this is maybe the next best thing.
April Snow: 18:03
Yeah, absolutely yeah. And what, before we get into talking about anxiety, imperfections and more something that came up as you were talking I'm wondering, wondering, you know, you do you say to that parent who has a sensitive Black girl and maybe doesn't understand them, is there something that you would say to maybe just give them some perspective or some reassurance, if anything comes to mind?
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 18:54
if anything comes to mind. Yeah, that's a really good question. I usually do tell parents that naturally, a lot of HSPs are drawn to the arts and even if I've had some kids that they still like more of the sciences, but there's this like human element they love about it of like I want to help find cures for diseases, to help other people and making sure that parents know that their child's idea of a successful career or life it can look different. It's still successful for them, but yeah, it can come in a different form and sometimes I'll just tell people about different examples of you know, black women in different fields that I've seen and their own success journey.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 19:34
But yeah, there's a lot of unlearning of being patient with your kid and saying, okay, like maybe I don't have all the answers, because I know that's a protective thing. You want to make sure your kid is safe is that these kids have really strong intuition, so if they feel pulled to something it's for a reason, and that to let them actually explore it before you cut them off and go. Oh wait, that might not work out for you Cause, yeah, I've always felt that, when I was a teen too, that there were things I wanted to explore. But then when I was told, well, maybe that won't be a successful path, it was like, oh okay, I'm not, I'm gonna just give that up. So yeah, just allowing them to explore and also like trusting, if they're not attached, that they'll find something else.
April Snow: 20:18
Yeah, it's such a good reminder that even as teenagers, sensitive kids, have strong intuition and they have that passion, that commitment, and they may change their mind a few times, but I mean, they're going to really put their all into it and it may look different than what you hoped as a parent or what you understand as a non-HSP human, but to trust them. What a good reminder. Right, they know themselves so well.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 20:48
Right.
April Snow: 20:49
Yeah.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 20:49
And I remind parents and kids because sometimes I work with them together in a space that it's not working as a team, like that's the point when other like whether they're looking at colleges or they're looking at career options that the point is that they work together as a team so that the teenager knows, okay, like I can go explore because my parent is going to support me in that exploration process. Instead of this, what I tend to see a lot when I first work with kids is this anxiety of I can't disappoint mom and dad or whoever else is in the family, because they're expecting this. So I need to move the way that they're hoping I will. But yeah, I remind it's kind of like couples therapy in a weird way. It's like we're on the same team, like that's the point is to make sure that the kid feels they can go explore what they're interested in.
April Snow: 21:37
Yeah, seeing the same thing. Yeah, it's just like a couple right. The more that you're trusted and that you're working together, more is possible, right. And when that child feels safe to explore and to follow their passions, you know they're going to be so much more successful than trying to fight something that isn't a good fit.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 21:59
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And when I was just answering your question before, I was thinking about when I was at college as an undergrad and I was studying nutrition and I thought, oh, I really should be in the science because I was told that was like the best type of career was to be in a STEM type of career. And I got to the end of college and I was like I'm just not feeling it and I realized like maybe it's not because I'm not good at this, I'm just not interested. I was really interested in psychology and I told my dad like isn't this like the worst thing? That I came through four years of school and I don't want to do nutrition? And he was like that's okay, it's okay if you change your mind.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 22:40
I was like what? Like no, like don't you say like oh, that's a disappointment. But no, he was like no, I felt that way too and I was like oh. So it was like hearing a message like that of like it's okay if you change your mind, it's okay if you don't want to commit to this anymore. It sounds like you know what you want. And it really helped. I was just like okay, yeah, I don't think this is for me anymore.
April Snow: 23:07
Yeah, it's such a good reminder to just push away those messages that say you have to do X, y, z. It's like, well, what if I'm not interested? What if it's not a fit? I had a very similar experience. I studied plant biology because I thought there's a steady path. I always circle all the psychology courses like longing for them. I thought, no, you need to be practical. But I never used that degree because I wasn't interested in it.
April Snow: 23:35
I was like oh, and now I'm going to go back to grad school and actually study psychology. Yes, it's such a good reminder, though, that follow your gut. Even if it doesn't make sense right away or it doesn't seem like the practical choice, it might actually be.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 23:50
Yeah. That sticks out for me. When you said I need to be practical, that's what I thought too, like no, I have to take organic chemistry and biochem because, like people understand those jobs or understand like nutrition, like we're at a hospital, like, yeah, let's be practical, let's not be like fantastical with helping people. But I really felt pulled to the psychology classes at school and I was like this comes so naturally to me, this is so easy, and it was like my intuition's yeah, you should check this out, you should look at psychology. But then the other part of not wanting to disappoint people was like no, that's not a reasonable path. You need to stick with science.
April Snow: 24:32
Yeah right, yeah, it's like that's the practical choice, the typical route, and saying, well, no, this is just trying to put a square peg in a round hole. It's not going to work. It's interesting that you know. I think what you're sharing reminds me that there's all these layers of messaging from yourself to your family, to the outside world, and you can get hooked into one. It's like, well, if we just pause and check in with what's really important. And you know, when you checked in with your dad, he's like, yeah, that's totally okay. It's like, oh right, it's fine, but we get stuck.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 25:12
Yeah, it's confusing because it's like I think, especially as an HSP the fear of upsetting someone or someone being disappointed that was just me like one of the worst feelings ever, and I think even as an adult I still feel that way, and so that was where my brain was as a younger person. Was I need to make sure everybody's okay with me?
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 25:35
I need to be able to maintain these relationships with friends, family, teachers. And it really was blocking out my intuitive side, because I was so tapped into what other people were feeling and when I would get a message of, like it's not about what other people want, it's about what you want, and I was like, oh yeah, who am I doing this for? Again, it was like a check in, like wait, no, it's not me. Like, this is my path, this is my life. So I would hear that sometimes from people and it was like, oh yeah, I forgot, like what I was doing this for, who I was doing this for.
April Snow: 26:13
I know it's so easy to get locked in and the intuition is just inaccessible. So let's slow it down and check in and see what's really true. You're talking about, I think, anxiety that bubbles up during those years and I'm wondering how, if you are a teen girl a Black teen girl, maybe a Black sensitive teen girl how it just it seems impossible to unhook from anxiety. I'm just wondering how can you do that?
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 26:48
Yeah, from anxiety. I'm just wondering how can you do that? Yeah, I think, yeah, I think the support system is so important in that moment. And I've seen, even if they're not getting it from home or from friends, when they come to therapy and they talk to me, it's like okay, somebody is listening to me about all these anxious feelings that I'm having and I get to like unfold this anxiety so I can start to really hear my own self. So that's.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 27:10
I just have seen that really just changes the trajectory for a lot of girls I work with, that they have someone who's just going to listen, not give a lot of criticism and judgment of like you should do this or you should focus on this, because that's mostly what they hear and that just feeds into the anxiety of I'm not doing enough, I'm not good enough, I'm not working hard enough, I'm not making people happy enough, and coming into a space where it's like you're not here to take care of me, I'm here to take care of you, and that I just think, as a black teen, hsp, that's like it's kind of mind blowing because you're just always thinking I have to take care of someone else.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 27:48
It's not about me, it's about other people and therapy at first is a little strange because like, oh, this feels kind of selfish. I've heard kids say that, like it's selfish to talk about yourself. But they're not used to that. They're not used to just speaking for themselves instead of thinking about what someone else needs from them yeah, you give them a space to just set everything down, even if it's uncomfortable at first.
April Snow: 28:12
Eventually they realize oh, this is a space I can be myself, I can let it all out. You can actually receive something back. I'm not need to worry about everyone else all the time. I don't have to worry about being so tough keeping that exterior on. Yeah, it's a place that you can receive that support and I appreciate that you said you know it doesn't have to come from everywhere. Even one person, a therapist, could make a difference.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 28:39
Yeah, it absolutely does. I mean, I think even for me my own therapy it's helped so much but just the therapeutic relationship of someone else taking care of you and you not feeling you have to go above and beyond or overstep your own boundaries to keep people um connected to you. It's just there's so much unlearning that comes with that and I always ask the kids like what do you want, what are your favorite classes? Like, what do you dream about?
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 29:08
So they're always like well, I don't really think about like this stuff I don't tell anyone what I want, because that might not be what they want and just remembering that it's about centering them in life. And it's a beautiful thing to want to center other people until you start to lose yourself in other people's journeys and you forget that it's not up to you to figure out what everybody else wants.
April Snow: 29:34
That's powerful, like, oh, I can actually think about myself even a little bit in this one space for this moment. What a change.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 29:47
Yeah, it's just like eye opening, like, yeah, and it takes a while to. I've noticed it takes it's like sometimes a few years just for a teen to go. Oh okay, it's about me, it's about my safety, it's about my goals, my dreams, my future. It can take a while and sometimes when I meet a kid it's in the middle of a lot of trauma, like especially a lot of relationship trauma and working through that of the grief of I thought I did everything for this person and then it all fell apart. It is really painful for teens, so it's just reminding them like you could be the most amazing, wonderful person and also, maybe you can't fix everybody's stuff, and that's okay too.
April Snow: 30:32
Yeah, that's hard to sit with everything. I worked so hard, I gave so much. Why didn't this work out? Yeah, it's really hard and the perfect time to be able to lean on someone else and have them be held up, but it is. It's a long process. I appreciate that you said it takes years, because it really does. There's a lot of you know. Just to go back to that word, unlearning, there's a lot of unlearning to do.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 30:57
Yeah yeah, there's so much unlearning. And I also wanted to add that I think within the Black community I've heard this from a lot of clients and I felt this way that there's this guilt that if I am doing well, I'm leavinging my family and friends and that's not a good thing and that's really challenging, because you want to show gratitude for your relationships but also to keep yourself stuck because other people are stuck. It doesn't get you to where you want to be. So that's always like this interesting balance of how do I show up for other people but I still show up for myself at the same time.
April Snow: 31:45
Stakes are high. To take care of yourself and maybe set down that responsibility for a little while, yeah, wow.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 31:53
Yeah.
April Snow: 31:55
I mean that guilt as a sensitive person is high, but then if you're a black sensitive person, it's even higher and you're compounding it. I mean, how do is it just being able to model it in therapy? You know, experience it in therapy. Is that enough, or is there more that you need to do to be able to say it's okay to take care of me?
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 32:16
I think modeling it in therapy is that's one way to do it and I've also been feeling, just in my professional work, that individual therapy sometimes I'm feeling like it's not hitting different parts of a teenager and I always love doing group work because I just find so much strength and like multiple people working together to figure something out. So I've been investigating more of that, Like how do I bring mothers and daughters together so they can have these conversations about what are the expectations and the relationships? But yeah, like it's individual work is great. And then I also realized like communal effort and the strength of the community is just so important and I think, because Black girls are always expected to grow up faster and to be responsible more quickly than other teenagers, that you can get left behind as a teen girl.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 33:12
You're going to have to figure that out for yourself and it's like, well, they're still kids, they're still trying to understand and develop and mature, so they still need a lot of support too. And kids feel a lot of shame about asking for help of like well, I should know how to take care of myself at a young age and I remind them like it's okay if you don't you're still really young, trying to figure it out and reminding them it's okay if you need more of your community to help you.
April Snow: 33:39
Yeah, and it makes sense that being able to bring that into a group setting, so you get to work out those group dynamics in a therapeutic setting where you feel safe and supported and there's room to make mistakes and to talk it through, kind of like try it on right and then be able to take it out you need that, that community support, and you need to be able to lean on multiple people and figure out how to communicate in a group. It makes sense while you're gravitating towards that work. It's so powerful and so important. Yeah, as you're talking about this burden, to do it all on your own. Take care of everybody else, I wonder. I've heard you talk about this concept of superwoman syndrome. I'm wondering if that is, if we're getting into that realm is would that be what that is?
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 34:35
yeah, yeah, absolutely. I know that that's been researched a lot, especially recently, about black women feeling they need to lift up the community and their families and just like be the caretaker for a lot of people for so long and seeing just so much resentment and anger of like nobody took care of me when I needed support or I was so busy lifting up other people that nobody said hey, like how is she doing there? Like how are you doing? It's like you know, that's not even a thought. It's like no, you're just supposed to be there to hold other people up. Kind of like you're the foundation of a whole house and that's a lot of pressure. So it's just interesting that it's not being normalized anymore.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 35:27
I think for younger generations to be that superwoman of like it's okay if you have needs, it's okay to have boundaries, and that's hard, I think with older generations of Black women it can feel a little selfish of like well, I didn't have that opportunity to take care of myself or do things for myself.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 35:45
I was responsible for other people and how can you get to just walk away and do your own thing? I've seen that a lot in my work and, yeah, the idea of self care is just. It's interesting how I've seen with like a young teen girl it can feel like such a selfish thing or it feels neglectful of other people. Like I should be able to give my whole self every day to everyone. And then that's my fear is that they're going to turn into an older woman who's very resentful and there's a lot of grief of what, like she didn't get growing up or not getting enough support, and that doesn't feel like that should be normalized to me anymore. It just it seems unfair. I think because of what Black women have gone through for so long, it's like it doesn't make sense that we should still be responsible for everybody. It's a lot to do for everybody.
April Snow: 36:40
It's a lot to do. It's a lot to do. I mean, like you say, in the past, holding up whole households. That's a lot on a Black woman's shoulders. So I could see there's a lot of intergenerational healing that needs to happen. If you're a young Black girl, you're getting the messages, maybe from your elders, that you should be hyper-independent, you should be that superwoman, because that's what I did and why should it be any different? But yeah, it's hard. You're trying to break that and say, no, it's okay to self-care, it's okay to have those soft pockets of your life, it's okay to take care of yourself for a little while.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 37:13
that, I imagine, is a really tough cycle to break oh yeah, yeah, it's a really really tough cycle to break, because it's not easy to live as a black person in this climate.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 37:24
Yeah, yeah, and that's I think. When I was younger, that was like the fear that if I was soft and sensitive, I was just so breakable that my environment in America was just going to pull me in half. Because I'm not, I wasn't tough enough to be able to get through all these different racist, misogynistic environments. And, yeah, I realized that wasn't true. At first I internalized it of like oh, I need to be a superwoman so I can handle all of this pressure. But as I got older and I had my own therapy, I realized, like wait, I can actually like walk away from that. If that's not something I want to be a part of, is this cycle. I can create something else for myself.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 38:12
And that for a long time didn't feel like an option of like well, this is the way it's always been, so you have to be this way. And then it was like, ah, but I don't want to keep going in this direction if it doesn't make me feel good and there's risk to going off and doing your own thing and not following what other people have done. But it's just also liberating. It's like wait, I don't have to be the super woman If this is exhausting. I don't want to be exhausted anymore.
April Snow: 38:38
Yeah Right, you can actually be a human, which I mean a super woman is not human.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 38:48
It's like a made up character, right, and it's like wait a minute. Yeah, it's like wait a minute. Yeah, like a super person doesn't usually have needs.
April Snow: 38:55
Like they're just taking care of everybody else exactly, and even those black elder women. They had to rest sometime, because you're saying they are human.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 39:06
Maybe they didn't show it or ask for help, but they they, I'm sure, needed it as human beings yeah, yeah, which I when I think I guess growing up observing it, I would always see black women napping. That was like, yeah, it was in these like small moments. I would see like sometimes my mom would just go take a nap. That's something she's always done since I was a kid, but it was in that. It was like, in between this really hectic schedule with all these different responsibilities, oh, let me just take a nap.
April Snow: 39:37
Yeah.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 39:38
And I think there is a. I don't think she's a therapist, but like a someone who has something called a nap ministry.
April Snow: 39:45
I was just thinking of her, yeah.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 39:46
Yeah, I forgot her name, but this black woman who embraces napping like it is a form of rest and it's an ancestral form of rest, and I mean, from what I've read and what I know, black women have been doing that for so long. Like, throughout a very hectic and exhausting day, you find a time to nap and I do that now, actually, when I think about it, like I love naps, but for a long time I thought napping was lazy. Was lazy like, no, like you're not supposed to nap, you're supposed to keep going until you go to bed no, there's wisdom in napping, yeah it's a restart.
April Snow: 40:25
it's a great restart, it's an amazing restart. And just to see that you know, these really strong women are also embracing naps. It's like, oh yes, we need breaks, right, we need rest, we need to slow down, and maybe that was their acceptable version of it. But now you're like, well, let's expand that even further. Sensitive girls of color who are maybe struggling with getting stuck in that superwoman syndrome or stuck in perfectionism, or wanting to take up more space for themselves is there a message that you could leave them with?
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 41:03
I think I would love to say you are going to disappoint people, but that doesn't mean you're doing something wrong or that what you want is inappropriate. It could mean that you're going on a path that other people don't agree with or maybe don't feel is important to them, but what to me, real strength is is saying well, if it feels right to me, then I'm going to keep pursuing that. And it's also inspiring to see someone who is not so concerned about what other people want for them or need for them, but puts themselves first and say, if I want to be happy, embodied and just loving, that this is the path that works the best for me and that's how I can be the best version of myself. I just have always found that in black people just so beautiful and so inspiring that it's like you. Just you do what feels right to you. That's really powerful.
April Snow: 41:59
Yeah trust yourself yeah and don't be afraid to lean into those pockets of softness and that support and doing things differently. Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of it's needed. Yeah, yeah it's needed well, noni, I just want to thank you so much. I feel like we could talk for hours, I know like I'm on a roll, I could keep I know, I'm sad that we're out of time.
April Snow: 42:25
there's so much more to say, and I just want to remind folks that you do have a lot of resources available on your instagram, your website. You mentioned that you offer groups, so if just want to remind folks that you do have a lot of resources available on your Instagram, your website, you mentioned that you offer groups, so if folks want to maybe get in touch with you for a future group, how could they do that?
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 42:40
Well, one of my Instagram handle is at Afro and Appetite, and if they would like to reach out about group work, you can email me at my professional email, which is noni, at rootsarttherapynyc.
April Snow: 42:54
Great, and I'll put that in the show notes for folks as well. Thank you so much, yeah.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 42:58
Thanks so much, April.
April Snow: 43:07
Thanks so much for joining me and Noni for today's conversation. I hope you'll remember to give yourself permission to rest and care for yourself, and that it's okay to receive as much support as you're giving to everyone else. And if you're interested in working with Noni one-to-one or attending one of her groups, you'll find her contact information in the show notes. If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to the Sensitive Stories podcast so you don't miss our upcoming conversations. Reviews and ratings are also helpful and appreciated For behind-the-scenes content and more HSB resources. You can sign up for my email list or follow Sensitive Strengths on Instagram, tiktok and YouTube. Check out the show notes or sensitivestoriescom for all the resources from today's episode. Thanks for listening.
