72: Easing into Anger
With Maya Benattar, LCAT
Do you push your anger away to make others comfortable? In this episode, I talk with Maya Benattar, LCAT about the importance of feeling angry and:
• Pushing against the notion that HSPs should be sweet and keep their emotions hidden
• How to feel your anger safely so it doesn’t become overwhelming
• Making space for anger through music, art, movement, or with your own voice
Maya is a licensed music psychotherapist in private practice in NYC & online across NY, helping highly sensitive women live with less anxiety, access true confidence and finally detach from "I'm not good enough". She relishes explorations around sensitivity, big feelings, inherited family stories, and messy creativity. In addition to her private practice, Maya provides wellness workshops and professional development trainings both online and in-person.
Keep in touch with Maya:
• Website: http://www.mayabenattar.com
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mayabenattar
Resources Mentioned:
• Why Is Anger So Hard For Me: https://www.mayabenattar.com/blog/why-is-anger-so-hard-for-me
• LCAT Advocacy Coalition: https://www.lcatcoalition.org
Thanks for listening!
You can also follow "SensitiveStrengths" for behind-the-scenes content plus more educational and inspirational HSP resources:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sensitivestrengths
If you have a moment, please rate and review the podcast, it helps Sensitive Stories reach more HSPs!
This episode is for educational purposes only and is not intended as a substitute for treatment with a mental health or medical professional. Some links are affiliate links. You are under no obligation to purchase any book, product or service. I am not responsible for the quality or satisfaction of any purchase.
Episode Transcript
Maya Benattar: 0:00
A lot of that comes up for HSPs in general because anger was never something that they learned how to actually feel in a way that felt grounded and safe and powerful. Anger is hard, it's difficult to feel it, to hold it, to express it in not an explosive or a dissociated kind of way. You weren't born believing that anger was bad. And some level, in some way, explicitly or implicitly, it was taught to you that this wasn't an okay way to be.
April Snow: 1:23
Helping highly sensitive women live with less anxiety, access true confidence, and finally detach from the I'm not good enough mindset. She relishes explorations around sensitivity, big feelings, inherited family stories, and messy creativity. In addition to her private practice, Maya provides wellness workshops and professional development trainings, both online and in person. For more HSP resources and to see behind-the-scenes video from the podcast, join me on Instagram, TikTok, or YouTube at Sensitive Strengths, or sign up for my email list. Links are in the show notes and at sensitivestories.com. And just a reminder that this episode is for educational purposes only and is not intended as a substitute for treatment with a mental health or medical professional. Let's dive in thea, welcome back to the podcast. So excited to have you. Yes, thank you so much. I know you were on before episode 31. Something I still think about, you said on ramps to softness. And someone just said that to me last week. They're like, remember when Maya said that? I was like, Yes, it's so good. I still think about it.
Maya Benattar: 2:50
Oh, I love that.
April Snow: 2:51
Just like, oh yeah, you can just ease into it. It's important. So that was something that really stuck out. But today we're gonna be going in a different direction. We're gonna talk about anger. Yeah. Much needed conversation right now in your world. And I think, especially for HSPs, to create some space that you know, we don't always have to be so nice all the time. So I'm wondering if you're open to starting us off with talking about your personal relationship with anger and if it's changed over the years at all.
Maya Benattar: 3:21
Yeah, I would love to talk about that because it's actually changed quite a bit.
April Snow: 3:25
Yeah.
Maya Benattar: 3:25
Yeah. And I think the same is probably true for a lot of people. But for many of us who were, you know, born into female presenting bodies, I was very much socialized to not be angry, to be nice, to be good, all of those sort of synonyms for not angry. And that followed me for a long time. I also, you know, grew up in a family where cursing was not generally okay. Ironically, it was more okay to curse in Arabic than it was to curse in English. I still haven't like totally made sense of that because it's still a curse, but you know, some of the Arabic curses I still don't quite know what they mean. They're like that bad. But anyway. So it took me a long time. I think I was at least in my mid-20s before I would say fuck out loud or say damn it or whatever it is. Right. So it was a big process for me of being able to feel that anger was okay, that I was entitled to it, that it didn't make me bad or too much or wrong. So that was a huge shift. It's a shift that I'm still, you know, living into in my early 40s, but a significant shift. And then a few years ago, I actually started an advocacy organization in New York for licensed creative arts therapists, primarily because I was angry. Anger is useful. Yeah, anger can be so useful. And I won't get into the whole, you know, background of that. It's called the LCAT Advocacy Coalition. We are still going. But essentially, I was angry. And instead of letting that lead to a quick spike and then a collapse, I let the anger, and it just was the right moment in time in my life. I don't quite know exactly what crystallized it. Had a couple of colleagues who were like, yeah, you know, let's do the thing. My husband was very supportive and just was able, I keep making this motion, I was able to let the anger move me into action. And that just felt so fucking satisfying. Yes. And it doesn't mean that there aren't moments where the energy goes back down the other way, because of course that happens. I really learned in particular over the past few years that my anger is really important, that my anger matters. And it's been an interesting exploration as an HSP, as a formerly very shy kid, which I no longer consider myself shy, but I absolutely consider myself an HSP and I will be that forevermore. It's been really interesting to find my voice in this new embodied way.
April Snow: 6:05
Oh, how beautiful that you just let it take up space. Right. And and you're channeling it for advocacy work, which is incredible. Not that you have to do that, but anger is here for a reason. It has a lot of energy behind it. So when we shove it down, oh, it's so hard on us. Yeah.
Maya Benattar: 6:24
Just to erase it. When we shove it down, my opinion is that when we shove it down, and this happens with a lot of my clients who are HSPs, the energy doesn't sometimes it might feel like it disappears, but it actually just gets like compressed. Yep. And the feeling of compressed energy is really crappy, in my opinion. Like it's just, oh, it's so heavy and stuck, and you know, that's the knot in your chest and the pit in your stomach, and the, you know, just the being kind of whatever the word is for this, kind of pushed downward. So compressed. Compressed, thank you. The energy doesn't actually go anywhere, usually. It just gets redirected and made smaller. And it deserves to take up space.
April Snow: 7:09
Yeah, it really does. And you're right, it doesn't actually go away, it just shows up in other forms. Yeah. And it could be physical symptoms. I have clients where it's like a pressure cooker and they just it takes over after years and years and years of repression. It wants to come out somewhere.
Maya Benattar: 7:25
Yeah.
April Snow: 7:26
Right. And maybe we can be more in control of that.
Maya Benattar: 7:29
And that's the tricky thing. You know, I have been thinking about talking about anger as it relates to working with HSPs for a couple of years. And there's usually one of two things happen. Of course, there's also usually a third, but always it always. But for HSPs, either they never get angry. And I don't believe that that means they don't actually feel anger, but they never let themselves express it in a way that feels, you know, complete and satisfying and safe. And there's any number of reasons why that might be happening. Or they are angry all the time, which then sort of feeds into I'm too angry, I'm too much, I'm not being good, all of that narrative, which just comes up a lot of that comes up for HSPs in general, because anger was never something that they learned how to actually feel in a way, again, that felt grounded and safe and powerful. And there's so many reasons, and I this is reminding me of a blog post I wrote some years back about anger and why it might be hard to feel it. And there's so many reasons why anger is hard. I think not only for HSPs, but that's the bulk of the work that I do, but just for people in general, why it's difficult to feel it, to hold it, to express it in not an explosive or dissociated kind of way.
April Snow: 8:53
Right, where you're not just erasing it or pretending it doesn't exist or just letting it take over. So you said it's hard for HSPs to feel anger. And it gets a bad reputation. Like, oh, we're supposed to be the nice, soft, good, you know, nice ones. And why aren't we allowed to be more angry as HSPs?
Maya Benattar: 9:13
I mean, I think a lot of this really overlaps with just societal views about anger in general. Yep, for sure. I think we need to I love really naming that so explicitly the last couple of years because it's just so fucking true. Like, and especially, like I said, especially for those of us born in female presenting bodies, like this sense of like it's not okay to be angry. Yes. Or, you know, all the rhetoric around women being too angry or too loud or too shrill or whatever. So I think it really starts with where, and that sort of language happens in families too. You know, absolutely. So for people who feel like, oh, it's not okay to be angry, when I'm working with them in therapy, I always start with, well, where did you hear that? Yeah, where did that actually come from? Because I've said to people, I'm not accepting that as like sort of a blanket statement. Like, yeah, anger may be hard for you, anger may be tricky, that's legit. But to paint with a broad brush and say anger is bad, yes, I don't know.
April Snow: 10:18
Yeah, it's not so absolute, right?
Maya Benattar: 10:20
It really never is, I think.
April Snow: 10:23
Yeah. And looking at, yeah, where did you learn that message? Yeah, and let's push back on it.
Maya Benattar: 10:28
Yeah. And so that's my thing. That's my thing. My one of my things the past couple of years is like that gentle pushback of like, okay. And sometimes I've had people say, no, well, that's coming from inside. I'm like, well, any message that comes from inside started from outside and got integrated, like with anything else, right? Like with any other beliefs. Like you didn't, you weren't born believing that anger was bad. Exactly. You know, like on some level, in some way, explicitly or implicitly, it was taught to you that this wasn't an okay way to be. So, and it sometimes it might be as relatively simple as experiencing others' anger and not being protected from that, right? And there's a whole lot to unpack there. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But for a lot of us, the societal messaging is just the gendered messaging, is just so huge and it's so pervasive. So really beginning to unpack that. Yeah. And to unpack what it means to be angry. Like, does anger like I've cursed a couple of times and I enjoy being able to curse? There's research about how actually cursing is like better for you than holding it in. I'm blanking on the name of the book, but it was a few years back.
April Snow: 11:42
That makes sense. Yeah. You can be more in tune with what you're feeling. It's more expressive. Yeah.
Maya Benattar: 11:49
Right? Exactly. Yeah. So, like I was saying before, there are so many reasons why anger is so difficult for HSPs. And I think figuring that out, it isn't so simple as like, here are the five bullet points, because you know, we're all complex beings in so many ways. But I often start with, well, where do you think you learned that? What's your earliest memory of being told that? Or sometimes it's not about being told don't be angry, but being told be good or be nice or be compliant, you know, which is a word that's been coming up a lot lately in the news, right? And so what's missing from those words is anger, but the implication is still there. Right. It's so, so implicit and it's so implicit for women. So I think being able to be even just a little bit curious, and like I was saying before, if clients are struggling with how to be curious about that, then I have no problem being explicitly curious for them, with them, of you know, where did you first hear that? Or this is what I'm hearing. And I wonder if that makes sense. And yeah, and so then also unpacking the belief that anger is inherently bad, right? That cursing is bad, or that it always looks one way. I think that there's a lot of, you know, especially if you grew up in a family that did anger one specific way, then you got used to, because we adapt, you got used to anger looking one specific way. And so this idea that anger can look so many different ways, right? You can be angry without cursing. Just because I've been cursing doesn't mean that's the one way to do anger, right? You can feel anger in your body, you can express anger in your words, it can be in your art, it can be in your music, right? Like there are so many different sort of containers for anger. Yeah, it doesn't have to be physical, it doesn't have to be violent, it doesn't have to be explosive, right? It can be this sort of undercurrent, right? Like as opposed to now, I'm thinking of a river, right? The sort of the energy of a river, maybe after the spring thaw, if you live where there's a spring thaw, like it's flowing, there's movement, but it's not, you know, an ocean wave that takes you under, right? It's more consistent and steady, right? So anger can look so many different ways and it'll shift. We were saying this before, like day to day, moment to moment, season to season. It doesn't have to be static.
April Snow: 14:22
It's a helpful reminder that anger, especially when you're allowing it to move through regularly, it can be a lot lighter, it can be more fluid, it could even maybe be creative, or as you know, you're channeling anger into advocacy work. So it could be resourcing. There's just so many ways it shows up. And we usually think of it as violence, you know, verbally aggressive. And it can be some of that too, but there's so many more opportunities for anger to come through.
Maya Benattar: 14:51
Yeah.
April Snow: 14:51
Yeah, it's a good reminder to hear that. Like anger looks many different ways. So however you express it, beautiful.
Maya Benattar: 14:58
And I think, you know, the important just to piggyback on that, I think one of the really important things about expressing it is figuring out how to express it in a way that feels safe. Right. So I have a lot of clients, and I felt this myself for a long time. I have a lot of clients who feel, well, if I go near that, I'm gonna get lost in it. I'm gonna go down the rabbit hole of it, I'm gonna drown in it. It's a lot of imagery there. And so part of the work that we do is figuring out the titration of it, right? Like what amount of anger is tolerable? You don't have to love it. It doesn't have to be your favorite, at least not right from the jump. But like, what amount is tolerable? And the way that I work as a creative arts therapist is that I'm in it with them, right? I'm not just sitting there and saying, tell me about your anger, but like, hey, if you draw it, I'll play it. Or can we play it together? Or these are like recorded music options that are somewhere in the vicinity of anger. Do any of these feel you know, connected for you? So I'm really in it with them. And I can only do that because I've done so much of my own work around anger.
April Snow: 16:02
Well, you're really joining with, yeah, which is so healing when you've been told your anger is bad, you need to hide it away. It's like, no, let me see it, let me be in it with you.
Maya Benattar: 16:15
It's so validating. I have so many clients who were told as kids, even as adults, like, if you're gonna be angry, go in your room, close the door, or their parents would ignore them or shame them for just for being angry about like regular kid things. Like, we're not even talking like you know, explosive anger. I'm like for just having feelings. And so it's so different for them, and they'll often name this. It's so different for them that I'm like, hey, you're angry. Yeah, you're fucking angry. Of course you're angry. What music did you listen to as a kid when you were alone with your anger? Which is so powerful. And then can we listen to that together? And sometimes just that is so healing, right? Because that was a resource that they used. But then to have that be a shared experience as opposed to a solitary one really can shift things, and it's a really powerful place to start from.
April Snow: 17:10
Yeah, I could see doing that even with a friend or a spouse or a loved one. Like, hey, I'm feeling pretty angry right now. Will you listen to this song with me? Yeah. Let's join together.
Maya Benattar: 17:22
Yeah. I mean, it's a way that I move myself through. Like, I'll, you know, literally this morning, I was really angry. It was a combination of things. It was what's going on in Minnesota and something that was happening in the advocacy work and something else I can't really remember right now. And I was really angry. And so a few years ago, my inclination might have been to just to like temper. To temper. And I had the time. This wasn't a client day for me. So I was like, you know what? I'm angry right now.
April Snow: 17:51
Yeah.
Maya Benattar: 17:52
And I need to feel that. And so I put on oh man, Seven Nation Army by the white stripes. Oh, that's a good one. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I just looped that. I did a little bit of imaging on the page with some oil pastels, right? And so I'll choose art materials intentionally, and those like let me like really feel the paper. And and then after that was enough, like I put the image aside. I'm like, I kind of want to keep listening to this. And I looped it. I was answering emails. I was, you know, using my standing desk. So I was moving, which is really important for me. And after maybe like 20, 25 minutes, I was like, I think I'm done with the song. And and that was a really clear knowing, right? So I gave myself the permission. Like, I know that song, right? It wasn't brand new to me. I think a lot of us know that song. And it is pretty containing. So thinking about like the structure of it, right? That that bass, those drums, like it's pretty containing. It's not, I wouldn't consider it especially chaotic. Um, you know, it's at least pretty predictable. Yeah. That will also change day to day. If I listen to it tomorrow, I might be like, oh my God, so much. Right. But it matched your mood today. It matched. It was, it was close enough and it matched. I don't break my head and I encourage my clients not to break their heads trying to find the perfect piece of music. I don't think that exists. Yep. You know, it's not about perfection, it's just about good enough, right? Which I think is something that all therapists say in one way or another. And so when I was done with that piece, I moved on to something else. I was clear in my just in my intuition that I still needed something with energy to it.
April Snow: 19:28
Makes sense.
Maya Benattar: 19:28
You're not going to drop down too far. Right. Yeah. But sometimes we have that inclination of like, oh, okay, I got to move from there to there. And it's like, you're not a light switch. I say this to my clients a lot. Like, you are not a light switch, you know, a regular light switch that toggles on and off. And because often they feel the pressure of like, I have to be angry or calm or happy or, you know, just these binaries.
April Snow: 19:50
Yeah, bring in some gray, some transition space.
Maya Benattar: 19:54
I talk, I we were talking before you and I about like dimmer switches. And I actually use that imagery all the time with clients of like, what would 10% less look like? And when I'm working with people in person, my office has a dimmer switch, thank goodness, as an HSP. And so I'll like point to it, or I've literally drawn it for people when working virtually, or I've been like, Do you have a dimmer switch? I mean, everyone pretty much knows what a dimmer switch is. But just that idea of like the shades of gray, the nuance, the okay, my anger was at a 10. And after listening to that song, I just felt like a seven and a half. Yeah. And that was more tolerable. I wasn't like, you know, vibrating anymore. And so I shifted the music I was listening to. And I actually kept shifting for a few hours after that. And so before we got on, I'd shifted my way all the way down to like a Paul Simon track. Okay. If I had put on a Paul Simon track this morning, it wouldn't have even registered. Right. So it is, and in music therapy language and in other languages called the ISO principle, that you meet yourself where you are and then you move gradually towards where you want to be. That makes sense. And some music therapists who work, let's say in the hospital with someone who's really having a lot of anxiety or a lot of pain, if you come in from the jump with like the most beautiful, calm music, it's not gonna register. It's not gonna meet them where they are. No. And we all deserve that, right? Whatever the situation is, we deserve to be met and held where we are. And then to, you know, to be gradually moved to somewhere else with that support and with that gentleness, but also a firm container, right? And music can do that so beautifully.
April Snow: 21:34
Well, and it's like how you will talk about how when you're anxious, sitting in meditation does not work. It's too same principle. Yeah, right. It's too far away from where you are, and you're trying to put a you know a square peg in a round hole. It doesn't exactly. Same if you're trying to listen to Paul Simon when you really need to listen to White Stripes or something even more intense, just matching your energy. So it sounds like Know this morning you talked about completing the anger. So is that kind of what that means? Of I'm letting the anger express, I'm kind of moving through, I'm giving it space to exist.
Maya Benattar: 22:12
Yeah. I mean, it felt like a completion for the moment. It doesn't yeah, like it doesn't obviously mean that I'm done with anger forever. Right. I don't even know what that means. But like that current iteration had been felt and integrated and moved through. And you know, me of 10 years ago might have very well put on Paul Simon. No, no shade to Paul Simon. I love his music. Might have very well put on Paul Simon and said, okay, Maya Brie. Don't need to be angry. It's not a big deal. Like all of those messages that I'm sure we've all said to ourselves or heard from other people, like Justin Brown, like all of that. It's like, no, I was I was angry.
April Snow: 22:52
Yeah, and hearing calm down is so infuriating. I know, I know.
Maya Benattar: 22:56
I tossed it in because like I'm sure everyone listening has probably I think we've all heard that at one point or another. And it's like it's not helpful. No, it is yeah, it's just really not helpful. I had another word, but that's really the gist of it. No, it's invalidating. It's invalidating. Thank you, customer. It's invalidating, it's unhelpful. It doesn't actually hear or meet the moment.
April Snow: 23:20
No.
Maya Benattar: 23:20
Right. And I think this moment that we're living in, I want to like be explicit about this moment, yeah. It is January 14th. You know, we're in the US. This moment that we're living in is a moment of collective trauma. And it's been, you know, we could also say we've been living in moments of collective trauma for a long time now. Very long. And what we don't need in moments of collective trauma is only the calming down.
April Snow: 23:46
Like oh, yeah. That's the opposite of what we need. It's like pulling the wool over and think saying, this isn't happening.
Maya Benattar: 23:53
Right.
April Snow: 23:53
Right. People aren't suffering.
Maya Benattar: 23:55
Right.
April Snow: 23:56
People aren't scared. Yeah.
Maya Benattar: 23:58
And so we need to be able to feel that anger again, ideally in a way that feels safe and grounded, right? Like I it would not have felt grounding for me if I had run out the front door and like gone for a sprint. I'm also not a runner, but you know. Um, some people that is the ticket for them, right? Going for a run is just the thing they need. So knowing like what works for you or having a menu sort of to choose from is really helpful, I find.
April Snow: 24:29
Yeah. And I'm glad you brought that safety piece back because that is such an important part of the process.
Maya Benattar: 24:34
Yeah.
April Snow: 24:34
I'm wondering if we could share for listeners what might be some unsafe things to express anger. It sounds like if it's not aligned for you, maybe it's something that you wouldn't normally gravitate towards, or if it's not matching the moment of your emotional state, like if you're trying to force yourself into a calm space. Yeah, if we could just share with what that might look like. What would be an unsafe way to be in anger?
Maya Benattar: 25:00
So, like so many things, like this will vary person to person. So all of this comes with like a giant caveat, right? Yep. I think that generally speaking, I will urge clients not to try to express anger in a way that is inflicting physical harm on their own bodies. Yep. And there's a difference between, you know, pinching your arm and punching a pillow, right? The pillow is external. Your arm is internal. But you know, we don't need to split hairs, like, sure, it's on the outside, but you get what I'm saying. I get what you mean. Yeah. So because sometimes I've had that happen with clients who are adults where like they never learned, they were never taught, it was never a model for them that like, hey, put on the headphones or hey, go for a walk or squeeze a pillow. So they do end up doing a bit of self-harm. Not even to the point of like cutting or anything like that, but just you know, hitting themselves on the head or something like that. Because it's the only release that they know. So I do try to encourage clients of like, let's just expand the possibilities. Yeah. Yeah, right. Without shaming, right? Like, of course, that's that was all that was available. Yeah, it makes sense that that's what you gravitate towards. Or like, even something like, you know, I'm a jog huncher myself, but some people will, that's what they'll intentionally go to. And it's like, oh, that that hurts. Like, I personally know like how much that fucking hurts. Yes. You know. So generally speaking, I think um building out, like, you know, I'm biased as a music therapist. Like, I have people build out playlists and we do it, yeah, like having an anger playlist and building it out ideally when you're feeling fine. Like I knew this morning that song, Seven Nation Army, um, that that would probably work for me. Yeah. I've listened to it before, I've moved to it before, I've imaged to it before. So having even just like two songs that you know, I think for me it's lately it's that one and a nirvana song. Oh, always good. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Um, so like having a couple of go-to songs, physical movement, I find. Like because we were saying before, like oftentimes the inclination to just like tamp it down is really strong. And we might not always like, I was lucky today. I'm gonna name that I was lucky and privileged today to be home, be in my space, and be able to move. You know, if I'm in my office and I'm between clients, I might have two minutes. Right. So that's when I do something like energetic sweeping or literally jumping up and down sometimes, or pushing into the wall really hard, like really activating all of my arm muscles. Really simple somatic stuff like that actually can really make a difference.
April Snow: 27:44
Oh, it really does. Just to engage your body in that emotion is even if you only have a minute or two, it's better than pushing it.
Maya Benattar: 27:53
Totally. And it's the pendulating in and out, right? So it's not about like you know, pushing on the wall for 10 minutes without any reprieve. Like you're just gonna end up with a sore arm and a sore shoulder, probably. But like the pushing, this is either from S E or S P, I never remember, but like pushing in and then you release. Yes. Push in and then you release, right? So like to feel the pendulating in and out. That's safety, right? To know I can feel this, I can move away from it. Yeah. Feel it, I can move away from it. Right. Right. And so to have that sense of agency with your anger, that also changes the internal narrative around like this is just something I have to, you know, race and get through, or something that happens around me or to me, right? To be able to go in, to go out.
April Snow: 28:43
Yes. Such a good reminder that you won't be trapped in the anger. So a lot of people I work with, they're so scared of their anger. Yeah. They've been told it was wrong, that they're just an angry person, that it's something you need to get rid of, that people don't like them when they're angry. Yeah. So yeah, it's just a good reminder. Oh, this is a temporary state. It'll come and go forever for your whole life. I mean, we have endless things to be angry about right now, as always. So it's not going away, but we can move in and out of it, and we're not stuck.
Maya Benattar: 29:17
Yeah. It's the stuckness that we fear. And that's such a human inclination, right? To fear being stuck. No one wants to be stuck. It's a really shitty feeling. But to have those experiences, and I think that's why you know therapy can be so reparative, those experiences of okay, just a little bit, right? And sometimes I'll have clients like, can you draw the anger? Right. So then it's already getting externalized because when it's internal and you don't either have language for it or a safe experience of it, it's overwhelming, right? Yes, it is. So you see them sometimes just like, can you draw it? Okay, what's it like to see it? Right? Like the shape that it has, the colors that you chose. And then where do you choose? You know, you can put it somewhere else, which like intellectually we know this piece of paper is mobile and it can go places, but it's so powerful to feel like, oh, I can put my anger on the other side of the office. I've had people like hide anger all over my office when I'm in a person. Or the anger gets, you know, to sit next to one of the stuffies and the stuffy's keeping the anger company so they can take a pause from right. Like again, just so many different experiences. So when you've had like pretty limited or repetitive experiences of anger to sort of widen the capacity of like, oh, I can draw it, I can crumple it up. You know, I've even had people like hand me their image, like, can you hold it? I'm like, Yeah, I can hold it. It's fine. I'm just put it right here on my lap or right next to me. There's infinite possibilities. There really are.
April Snow: 30:51
I love that. It's like again, joining with and taking some of that weight off, like, okay, you're not in this alone. And you may have been when you were younger, smaller, yeah, but not now. Yeah. So this is starting to bring it out. And I love putting it on the page.
Maya Benattar: 31:06
Yeah.
April Snow: 31:07
It's so good. Like, oh, this is what it looks like. And also, I'm getting it out of myself.
Maya Benattar: 31:13
Yeah. Right. I mean, catharsis, look, the desire for catharsis is legit, right? So, but I think when we let anger be just catharsis, it can also be overwhelming. Right. And that's kind of the flip side. So I have a lot of clients who don't feel able to express anger for, like I said, any number of reasons. And then those that come in, a lot of HSP clients, you know, in recent times will say, I'm too angry, too angry, or I'm angry all the time and I'm overwhelmed by it. Yeah. Right. So to be able to sort of figure out again that gray space of like, can I feel just a little bit of it? Or can I feel my anger, but without it being purely an exercise and catharsis? And that takes some exploration, right? Because we want to just like get it out. Oh yeah. But there's more waiting behind it. Right. There's more, there's always more waiting behind it. But if our focus is just on getting it out, right, which is why, you know, I didn't listen to the white stripes for six hours straight. You know, if our focus is just on letting it out, it then becomes, for lack of a better phrase, like, you know, you vomit it all up and you feel better when you have a stomach. It's probably not the end of the stomach bug, right? This may not be a metaphor. But I think it's really important to feel, okay, I don't have to go all the way to the end to feel relief or to feel in control or to feel better, right? Because catharsis is looking for that relief and you deserve that relief, but catharsis so many times will take you out of your window of tolerance, right? You say all the things, you vent, you dump. You haven't actually learned how to experience anger in a way that feels productive, that feels safe, that feels mobilizing. Right. And the reality is we all need a good vent sometimes. I, you know, like I'm also feeling like if that's the only way that you experience anger, there's limitations on it.
April Snow: 33:13
Yeah, that makes so much sense. Like you're turning the light down too quickly, kind of throwing yourself into it. Yeah, because you have to titrate, you have to take a little bit at a time or you get that explosion.
Maya Benattar: 33:24
Yeah.
April Snow: 33:25
I'm just thinking of like a chemical reaction.
Maya Benattar: 33:27
Yeah, I mean, pretty much, right?
April Snow: 33:30
Right. So we have to then I love that you said that relief. You don't have to get to the end to have relief. Like you today you said, oh, I went from maybe a 10 to a seven. I forget exactly how you said that. But like, oh, I'm just slowly down shifting a little bit at a time, and that's relieving too. Yeah. And it gives us a chance to learn about our anger.
Maya Benattar: 33:50
Yeah.
April Snow: 33:50
So what is possible when we're moving slowly? Are we building relationships to anger? Are we learning how to work with it? All of it. I think all of that.
Maya Benattar: 34:00
I think, you know, I see like the building a different relationship to anger, that's really the fundamental piece. Yeah. Right. That anger can be an ally instead of an enemy. Right. Like that is, yeah, that is so, that's just so important. I think a lot of times, again, for any number of reasons, people have learned that anger is the enemy. And so what if, and sometimes that's really valid, right? If they've had experiences of being literally unsafe. I'm not here to take that away from anyone, but what if anger could be an ally, like what I shared with the advocacy work that I do got started. The anger was like this driving force that was pushing me forward. Yeah. Right. And there have been moments where I've been overwhelmed, I'm not gonna lie. But it feels better to be doing something than to not.
April Snow: 34:54
Yeah, the action feels good.
Maya Benattar: 34:55
Yeah, right.
April Snow: 34:57
Anger wants to be moving.
Maya Benattar: 35:00
And also like anger is telling us something really important, right? Like it is giving us so much information. It is, you know, if you think in part, it is a part, it is a voice, whatever the language you use is that that wants to be heard, that deserves to be heard, right? And oftentimes, most of the time, it is saying, This is not okay. Yes, right? Some version of that saying, this is not okay. I do not feel okay about this.
April Snow: 35:30
Yes, it is an ally, it's helping you stay safe. Yeah, ultimately. Yeah. Yeah. So it's important to listen to it.
Maya Benattar: 35:39
Yeah, for sure.
April Snow: 35:40
Mm-hmm and make space for it. Yeah, that brings up a listener question, which is let's say you are noticing something's not okay, you're getting angry, but then people are trying to push you around and maybe try to control your experience. How can we stand up for ourselves? Obviously, we're hopefully expressing it with ourselves, but is there a way to channel that anger towards others in relationship where we can start to communicate the anger?
Maya Benattar: 36:08
Yeah, this happens so often, right? Especially I find this with clients when they start to feel more connected to their anger, people in their lives are like, wait a minute, you this is new and I don't like this, right? Or some version of that. There's so many thoughts that I have when I see what this is a big question. Yeah, it's a big question. And it does, you know, I think the answer is different depending on the context, right? Like, is someone pushing back on you in a text message when you have a moment to yourself to kind of collect yourself versus face to face, right? Like, so I think the moments when it's happening not in real time, whether let's say a text. And I think that's a moment to actually step away and to come back into your body, whatever that looks like for you, right? So whether it's a song, whether it's movement, whether it's, you know, going to hug your dog, that's a big one for me. Shout out to Willis.
April Snow: 37:00
Yes.
Maya Benattar: 37:02
You know, that is like giving yourself that break because what can often happen, and especially in the world we live in where like the notifications are going off all the time and there is this pressure. Like I live my life with my phone mostly on DD because I'm like, I'm not available, even if I might be available. Yeah. So like giving yourself that break of like they're pushing back on my anger. I don't need to respond right now. Yes. I can, you know, put my phone down and go into the other room for five minutes and nothing, that's fine. Like, that's not a big deal. Yeah. So refining that anger, because usually what I find happens in those moments is either you collapse internally or it's like you turn the flames up to 10. And you probably don't want to respond from either of those places, ideally. Right. So, like figuring out, like, okay, how do I either need to re find my body? Like, I even just did it now, like, where's my spine? Right. Because when we collapse, we kind of do this. That's true. Yeah. You know, it might be more subtle than that. We don't always like end up curling up into a ball, but it's some version of that. So, like, where's my shoulders? Where's my spine? Can I am I aware of the back of my body or am I just collapsing forward? Which is a really instinctual thing to do, right? To like literally protect our most vulnerable parts. So that's if like it's happening not in real time and you can take some time. I think if it's happening in real time, where like let's say you're having a conversation with someone, and this is trickier, of course. You're having a conversation with someone and you're expressing anger and they're pushing back on it.
April Snow: 38:38
Yeah.
Maya Benattar: 38:39
It's a different version of where is my body, right? So, you know, are you aware of your feet? Like that's a big one for me. Not be calm. I think sometimes when we're like be in your body, there's the okay, I'm gonna be calm. It's really hard to be calm while you're experiencing someone either be angry at you or push back. So where are your feet? Right. And then any number of options, including, you know, hey, can we take a break? Or I need five minutes, or I'm a big proponent of the little white lies. And I absolutely say this to clients. Yeah, you know, like, say you need to use the restroom when you don't use the restroom, or I think I hear my phone ringing, or the dog is barking. Or I mean, I guess you can't pretend that the dog is barking when they're not, but you get the idea, right? Like just if you need to remove yourself, remove yourself.
April Snow: 39:33
Yes, find whatever way you can to do that.
Maya Benattar: 39:36
Yeah.
April Snow: 39:36
For safety.
Maya Benattar: 39:37
Yeah, 100%. And so there's really just there's a permission in that of like you do not have to brace and make it through, right? Those of us who have had overwhelming experiences of anger probably are used to just like we brace until it's done. Yep, get through it. And that's a really, you know, that's a learned behavior. And it may have kept you really safe in many scenarios, right? I'm not here to say like that's not the way to do it, but this is about exploring what are some other options, right? If you're having like a big blowout fight with your mom in the kitchen, mom, I need a breath of fresh air, right? Like I'm gonna walk around the block, I'll be back in five minutes.
April Snow: 40:21
Break that cycle.
Maya Benattar: 40:22
Right. Yeah, because a lot of anger, especially with people who we know, it runs in cycles, right? Like you say something, they say something, and then right, back and forth. Yeah. So if possible, giving yourself that break. If that isn't possible, or if it happens so fast that afterwards you're like, wait, what the hell happened? I think being able to reflect, right? As opposed to like, oh fuck, I did it again, or this is never gonna change. Like when you're able, like it is helpful, I find, to reflect afterwards, even if it didn't go the way you want it to, which happens all the time, right? And being able to ideally reflect with as much kindness towards yourself as possible, right? Because working on your anger is not going to be helped by being angry at yourself. Right. Just gonna feed it. Yeah. And a lot of us HSPs can be really self-critical. I have that capacity as well. And so it could be really easy to spin into the, oh, I fucked up, oh, I did this wrong. Why don't I ever learn? That just, and even as I'm saying these things, and I'm not even angry right now, I'm just I can feel the like, uh, it's so heavy.
April Snow: 41:33
It's so heavy. You just beat yourself down. Yeah. Instead of just making space for the anger. And like, I'm a human with emotions, and it's hard to figure things out in the moment, especially as an HSP. When we need time to process, you don't always get to do that real time.
Maya Benattar: 41:48
And there's something to be said also for like in the reflection after of like, what would you have wanted it to feel like? Yeah. You know, it this isn't an ideal world that we're not shooting for perfection, but could you imagine that scenario, whatever the details were, feeling a little different? Right. It's the imagining something different, I think, that is so important because we can get really stuck in the loop of like this is what always happens. And so I'll do that with clients sometimes when they come in, they're like, and this and this. And like, okay, could you imagine this having gone a different way? Even if it feels we don't have to figure out the how right now, like we can get really stuck in that. I think a lot of us in also have that capacity. How am I gonna do the thing that I want to have happen? But if we can hang out with the what do you imagine it would look like, feel like, sound like if it was different, that's important sort of repatterning for your nervous system as well. That's an opportunity to find a song or to draw it, or what did you want this to feel like? Because that's also really validating of like, oh, yeah, I this isn't what happened, but my desire for this different experience matters. And I can have a little snippet of that experience now.
April Snow: 43:05
Yes, already changing the narrative, yeah. Getting to try it on and then getting to talk to yourself differently, yeah, surrounding the emotion.
Maya Benattar: 43:15
It's also a way to, you know, if you're doing it in hindsight, it's a way to experience it and kind of store that internally for the next time, right? Because when we're in the heat of the moment, whatever the moment is, if we haven't experienced the thing, right? If we haven't learned, whether it's anxiety or anger or whatever, if we haven't learned how to do the thing that we're wanting to do, if we haven't learned it out of the moment, you're probably not going to learn it in the moment, which is why people saying just calm down is so inherently unhelpful. Yes. Exactly. So being able to play around with it outside of the heat of the moment, right? Is just sort of have a little bit of practice. It's like anger practice.
April Snow: 44:00
You know, yeah, exactly. Just like you're making your playlists out of the moment. Yeah, try on some different things in your mind. So you then you'll have that in the background next time.
Maya Benattar: 44:10
Or you know, I'm a huge proponent of like trying it on before you need it, just in general, whether it's anger or something else. But like if you haven't tried it beforehand, you're not gonna have access to it in the heat of the moment. In the heat of the moment, you know, if I'm really pissed, I'm not gonna be able to tell you anything, you know, like it's just not happening. But I know where my phone is and I know, you know, usually, and I know, you know, how to find music on it. And I so it's a way to really care for future you're like, I'm gonna practice this now so that I have it when I need it. It's like taking your vitamins.
April Snow: 44:48
Yeah, exactly. I obviously we're talking about kind of a post-angering situation, but if you want to work with your anger, could you reverse engineer where maybe you put the anger playlist on and you're letting your body move, whether it's through art or somatic practices, and then maybe you tap into some anger just to start to build relationships. Is that possible?
Maya Benattar: 45:10
I think so. I think because ultimately this is about, like you were saying before, this is about building a different relationship to anger. Right. Right. So a lot of times doing that needs to happen when you're not actually angry. Right. Yeah. And that runs so contrary to what a lot of people believe. And honestly, what a lot of people believe about processing this stuff in therapy. Well, I'm not angry right now, I'm fine. Right. How many times have we heard that? Right. I'm like, I'm like, amazing. You're fine. What in the grand scheme of I don't think I actually talk like this, but like, what needs some attention that isn't front and center for you right now? Right. So I often will do work with people around anger, around anxiety when they're feeling fine. Because when you're feeling fine, you're a little more resourced. Exactly. That's the time to do the work. That actually is, right? And oftentimes, look, every time do you have to do the work and you feel fine? No, sometimes just fucking enjoy feeling fine and you know, love it. But sometimes that's really an opportunity that we often will miss.
April Snow: 46:14
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I'm appreciating this invitation to be in relationship with anger. Let it be malleable, let it be variable, different. It doesn't have to always be the same. Um, and we can give ourselves the grace. Yeah, we don't always have to get it perfect. No, never.
Maya Benattar: 46:33
We're just not gonna get it perfect. There is there is no perfect expression of anger, right? Like, and I often think about, especially in this time, anger that has created change throughout history. Anger that has created change. It has not been perfect. It has been messy and chaotic and yet still mobilizing.
April Snow: 46:54
That's right. It's still useful and valuable and life-changing for some people. Yeah, let's we need more of that.
Maya Benattar: 47:02
Yeah, for sure.
April Snow: 47:03
Well, Maya, I really appreciate this conversation and just opening up permission for HSPs to get angry, to create space for it, to have conversations about it. I'm wondering if there's any last thoughts you have for listeners before we wrap up. Yeah.
Maya Benattar: 47:21
Oh, this has been so good. I think I've probably said this, but I think it always bears repeating that being angry doesn't make you a bad person, doesn't make you wrong, doesn't make you too much. Anger is just really valuable information and it deserves to be heard and felt in a way that feels okay.
April Snow: 47:43
Thank you.
Maya Benattar: 47:45
Thank you, April.
April Snow: 47:46
Really important reminder. And if folks want to get in touch with you, I'll share your website, your social media, your Instagram. And then is it okay to also share your LCAT coalition? Yeah, for sure. Beautiful. If anyone is interested and wants to look that up.
Maya Benattar: 48:03
And then I'll also, I would also love to share the blog post about anger. I wrote it a few years ago, but it feels still very relevant.
April Snow: 48:10
Yeah, I definitely want to include that for folks to just have that in their back pocket. Thanks so much for joining me and Maya for today's conversation. I hope you'll feel inspired to make more space for your anger through music, art, movement, or with your own voice. You can connect with Maya for therapy or trainings through her website or Instagram page. Find the links in the show notes. If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to the Sensitive Stories podcast so you don't miss our upcoming conversations. Reviews and ratings are also helpful and appreciated. For behind the scenes content and more HSB resources, you can sign up for my email list or follow Sensitive Strengths on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube. Check out the show notes or sensitivestories.com for all the resources from today's episode. Thanks for listening.
